If you want a real answer, many who have given it considerable thought believe in the West in large measure because "Baby Boomers" said to their children "you can make up your own mind" but they never instilled in them what it was that they were to make up their minds about. Hence they grew up in a vacuum.why then have their numbers continued to decline as well?
Someone brought up a point worth considering. Many are turning their back on mainstream religions because of the polarization of politics as a result the religious right activities,especially in the USA, not a sudden epiphany about the flaws of religious beliefs.If you want a real answer, many who have given it considerable thought believe in the West in large measure because "Baby Boomers" said to their children "you can make up your own mind" but they never instilled in them what it was that they were to make up their minds about. Hence they grew up in a vacuum.
This is not a universal applying to everyone, but it does apply to a vast majority.
But that would suggest that the real decline began with the baby boomers, not their kids. The "boomers" grew up in religious householdsIf you want a real answer, many who have given it considerable thought believe in the West in large measure because "Baby Boomers" said to their children "you can make up your own mind" but they never instilled in them what it was that they were to make up their minds about. Hence they grew up in a vacuum.
This is not a universal applying to everyone, but it does apply to a vast majority.
For the Catholics..and non Catholics..it needs to be re-iterated....this Pope will not change to allow women priests, will not support gay marriage. As for doctrine....there will be very little change.
Why? Because the church has deep, old roots.dogma..that is adhered to.
If YOUR beliefs are not in line...you are free to leave and find a church that suits your beliefs.
Asking a Church to change, just because you have lost interest, is not going to happen. I suspect many changes could occur in Catholic and other Churches, and the complainers would still not start attending Church.
For the angry ones, who believe the CHURCH should change, I ask two questions.
1) why have you not found another, more amenable church to worship in?
2) The Anglicans allow women ministers....The United Church marries gays....others support divorce.....why then have their numbers continued to decline as well? These are the churches that DID CHANGE, however have continued to decline.
Well said.You are right Aardvaark.
its easy for the naysayers to say change is necessary...sort of anti establishment thinking....but I would guarantee that many large scale changes would not draw these people into church every Sunday.
Lets say tomorrow, the Catholic Church offered support of abortion, gay marriage and women priests. Also priests marrying, and other major changes. Lets even throw in a reporting of all past and present pedophiles to the police along with excommunication.
I would bet a paycheque the complainers would still not end up in church...now claiming the Catholics are wishy washy
they don't get..and will never get..the power of faith.
I agree.For the Catholics..and non Catholics..it needs to be re-iterated....this Pope will not change to allow women priests, will not support gay marriage. As for doctrine....there will be very little change.
Why? Because the church has deep, old roots.dogma..that is adhered to.
If YOUR beliefs are not in line...you are free to leave and find a church that suits your beliefs.
Asking a Church to change, just because you have lost interest, is not going to happen. I suspect many changes could occur in Catholic and other Churches, and the complainers would still not start attending Church.
For the angry ones, who believe the CHURCH should change, I ask two questions.
1) why have you not found another, more amenable church to worship in?
2) The Anglicans allow women ministers....The United Church marries gays....others support divorce.....why then have their numbers continued to decline as well? These are the churches that DID CHANGE, however have continued to decline.
This is priceless. I actually thought I was reading an Onion story.You are right Aardvaark.
its easy for the naysayers to say change is necessary...sort of anti establishment thinking....but I would guarantee that many large scale changes would not draw these people into church every Sunday.
Lets say tomorrow, the Catholic Church offered support of abortion, gay marriage and women priests. Also priests marrying, and other major changes. Lets even throw in a reporting of all past and present pedophiles to the police along with excommunication.
I would bet a paycheque the complainers would still not end up in church...now claiming the Catholics are wishy washy
they don't get..and will never get..the power of faith.
I would suggest the decline in tradional churchs came about because of their institutional focus, taking attendance and rote memorization for kids etc. They lost their spiritual relevancy. Today, some non traditional churches are full every Sunday because of their focus on the teachings of Jesus.But that would suggest that the real decline began with the baby boomers, not their kids. The "boomers" grew up in religious households
but did not have the real conviction of their faith to pass it on to their kids. The kids' vaccuum is merely a reflection of their parents' apathy.
This is very true. The Vatican Museum is astoundingly beautiful, as well. If there's anything that might make you feel spiritual it's that. But the clever person can see that despite all that beauty, The Church is a sickly corrupt and disgusting institution, filled with lies, secrecy and unadulterated evil in its purest form. At least Monsanto doesn't trying and distract and seduce people with prayers and fairy tales while it slugs farmers with lawsuits and silencing payoffs.I agree.
This one point is a little more difficult to deal with.
The power of indoctrination is so powerful, it's not as easy as that. These are not just beliefs, but institutional beliefs that define followers to the core.
I'm not sure if there's also something unique about catholocism as opposed to other Christian denominations.
I'm atheist but I was raised a catholic. Even after I crossed the line to non-believer, I still identified myself partly as a catholic for a while.
The rituals of the church, the sensory aspect of it, the vestments, the churches and cathedrals, the incense, the confessing, it all digs deep.
I'm way past that now, but I understand it.
I went to St. Peter's in Rome a few years back, and let me tell you, it pulled at something that I thought I had long let go of.
It's clear you don't know Aartie and understand religion as well as CM.This is priceless. I actually thought I was reading an Onion story.
It's of course exactly the opposite of what you propose: If the church modernized, people would FLOCK to it. Flock. To. It. People are desperate to be included, desperate to be part of "something bigger" (for me, as George Carlin says, the sun will do just fine). The huge bleed in "followers" has to do with Science and The Internet, two forces that have served to puncture fairy tales and gates around hierarchies. But also it's the fact that in a world of dizzying change, the Church refuses to evolve, and we all know what happens to those things that don't evolve (is that me cheering? Maybe...)
Basically your thing is essentially: "Don't like it, go fuck off and find another church." Fair enough, but a little inclusion and modernizing would bring back "followers" by the zillions in an age of fear and uncertainty. Sticking 75 year old bald, white heads in the sand and diddling each other won't do it.
No they say, 'buy our seed, or die/starve/go bankrupt'.This is very true. The Vatican Museum is astoundingly beautiful, as well. If there's anything that might make you feel spiritual it's that. But the clever person can see that despite all that beauty, The Church is a sickly corrupt and disgusting institution, filled with lies, secrecy and unadulterated evil in its purest form. At least Monsanto doesn't trying and distract and seduce people with prayers and fairy tales while it slugs farmers with lawsuits and silencing payoffs.
Jesus would have nothing to do with The Catholic Church.
Does that really matter? Did the Catholic Church ever claim it was founded by Christ?Jesus would have nothing to do with The Catholic Church.
Yea, he's just a footnote in the whole scheme of things.Does that really matter? Did the Catholic Church ever claim it was founded by Christ?
And which church you think Jesus would endorse? Anglican, Baptist or Presbyterian?
Did the poster say that Jesus was the founder of the church?Just because Jeses was worshipped by Catholics didn't make him the founder
of the Catholic Church. Catholics worshipped God the father and Virgin Mary
as well.
George puts religion in perspective.(for me, as George Carlin says, the sun will do just fine).
