I know this is a touchy subject...but curious on thoughts...

[LikeRedHeads]

By refusing to do so, or posting these threads trying to rationalize your refusal, that just tells us that you are potentially a difficult client, one who does not want to play by our rules and may try to wiggle around other boundaries.

.

I think that is a BIG stretch! If someone does not want to provide a reference he may have hundreds of reasons. Yours is only ONE reason that is very unlikely. I personally do not provide my handle for the reason stated above. I have never provided a reference before (I refused the 3 or 4 requests) and continue to do so (for 99% of the providers) for reasons of privacy. If you value your privacy, then you should understand that we do too! I don't think this is difficult to understand.

Then let's be realistic a bit more. Because:

1. Most hobbyists like variety, they tend not to repeat with SPs.
2. Some SPs are seeing 10 (or more) clients a day.
3. Most of us are regular guys that look like regular guys.
4. Some SPs are more concentated on getting the guy out than providing service (not really noticing anything about the client).
5.Some SPs do not have a very good memory.
6. Some are shy and say almost nothing (therefore not noticeable).

HOW THE HELL CAN AN SP THAT YOU SAW REMEMBER YOU? UNLESS YOU ARE A REGULAR (almost the opposite behavior of a typical hobbyist) WITH AN SP.

This is COMPLETE BS, unless the SP is looking for some regular hobbyist 'to steal' from another SP.
I don't expect the average SP to remember me and that is ok, since she is seeing a lot of guys. A friend of mine went to see an SP for the first time and he told her that he has seen her before to get the BBBJ service that she provides only to her regulars. You know what: she acted as if she knows him and acknowledged that she has seen him (and he got the BBBJ service allowed only to regulars). This reference thing is a lot of BS for a lot of people but if you believe in it , hey it's a free country. I don't and it is my right to seek another SP that respects my privacy.

 

[KathrynBardot]

I think that is a BIG stretch! If someone does not want to provide a reference he may have hundreds of reasons. Yours is only ONE reason that is very unlikely. I personally do not provide my handle for the reason stated above. I have never provided a reference before (I refused the 3 or 4 requests) and continue to do so (for 99% of the providers) for reasons of privacy. If you value your privacy, then you should understand that we do too! I don't think this is difficult to understand.

If you don't want to provide a reference, cool. Don't contact a provider who states on their website that they screen with references. Don't argue with them about it or tell them that if they want a reference they'll have to do the leg work themselves. Don't start a thread whining about it and trying to get others on your side (which is akin to bullying us out of requiring references).

There's a difference.

Most folks who don't want to provide a reference will either say "oh, I'm sorry" or ask if there's another screening method. That is showing respect.

 

[LikeRedHeads]

I agree with you Kathryn. I ignore the (reference) request and move on to the next provider who respects my privacy. This is my privacy and I manage it the way I like, and I don't ask questions to the provider who is looking for references, since it is her right to do so also. For us clients we have so many opportunities to have fun with SPs, that if one SP is making it difficult for us, we just move on. For you SPs, it's the same thing: when I was a regular member of the other board, there was a discussion about this same subject and it turned out that about at least 75% of the rosy hobbyists agreed to provide references. So for you also you have a lot of (rosy) hobbyists who are willing to provide references. So at the end of the day, just be who you are and do what you think is best for you, and respects the other's decision.

 

[Catherine St.Claire]

I think that is a BIG stretch! If someone does not want to provide a reference he may have hundreds of reasons. Yours is only ONE reason that is very unlikely. I personally do not provide my handle for the reason stated above. I have never provided a reference before (I refused the 3 or 4 requests) and continue to do so (for 99% of the providers) for reasons of privacy. If you value your privacy, then you should understand that we do too! I don't think this is difficult to understand.

Then let's be realistic a bit more. Because:

1. Most hobbyists like variety, they tend not to repeat with SPs.
2. Some SPs are seeing 10 (or more) clients a day.
3. Most of us are regular guys that look like regular guys.
4. Some SPs are more concentated on getting the guy out than providing service (not really noticing anything about the client).
5.Some SPs do not have a very good memory.
6. Some are shy and say almost nothing (therefore not noticeable).

HOW THE HELL CAN AN SP THAT YOU SAW REMEMBER YOU? UNLESS YOU ARE A REGULAR (almost the opposite behavior of a typical hobbyist) WITH AN SP.

This is COMPLETE BS, unless the SP is looking for some regular hobbyist 'to steal' from another SP.
I don't expect the average SP to remember me and that is ok, since she is seeing a lot of guys. A friend of mine went to see an SP for the first time and he told her that he has seen her before to get the BBBJ service that she provides only to her regulars. You know what: she acted as if she knows him and acknowledged that she has seen him (and he got the BBBJ service allowed only to regulars). This reference thing is a lot of BS for a lot of people but if you believe in it , hey it's a free country. I don't and it is my right to seek another SP that respects my privacy.

This says it all. And guys wonder why sex workers don't trust clients? The man in the above example straight up lied to her to side step her boundaries and get what he wanted regardless of what she had outlined. Makes a girl think...

cat

 

[LikeRedHeads]

This says it all. And guys wonder why sex workers don't trust clients? The man in the above example straight up lied to her to side step her boundaries and get what he wanted regardless of what she had outlined. Makes a girl think...

cat

That point was made to show that SPs are human and can't remember sh-t of who they fucked. This is NOT a critique, it's only a fact and I don't blame the girl(s) because of the nature of the 'job'. This has nothing to do with this person who lied or not. The SP can't remember all guys that she fucked and this is ok; I am not debating that, I am only showing that it is not human to ask an SP to remember you because she fucked you : unless you are a regular, she cannot remember you (and it's ok!).

 

[Ryan1967]

Yikes...I guess you are referring to me as the one who is bullying, whining and rationalizing my refusal...? Hostile much?

I was actually asking for input, but thanks for the biting comments anyway.

I have no issues whatsoever with my online persona nor my actual persona...heck...a well respected provider jumped in earlier on this thread to tell me that she would act as a reference anyway...so no...am not worried...but thanks for asking.

My real concern is not one of safety or screening, and yes, a provider can choose whatever process they like, just as I can choose to see them or not. I simply have ethical concerns about providers outsourcing their screens to other providers and was looking for an alternative.

If you don't want to provide a reference, cool. Don't contact a provider who states on their website that they screen with references. Don't argue with them about it or tell them that if they want a reference they'll have to do the leg work themselves. Don't start a thread whining about it and trying to get others on your side (which is akin to bullying us out of requiring references).

There's a difference.

Most folks who don't want to provide a reference will either say "oh, I'm sorry" or ask if there's another screening method. That is showing respect.

 

[too2shy]

It's a good thing terb exists.. or we wouldn't have even the most basic "reference" for the 80% of the women in this trade who are a total waste of time.. who miss appointments, who don't come through with what they said they would, who cross boundaries into becoming straight con-artists and thieves.. who are often under the influence, or have poor hygiene.. don't look like their advertised photos..

Given most hiring managers realize there is no sense in checking references for job applicants, as nobody every gives someone a list of people who would say something bad about them. I can't fathom how getting one from a john is of any more use.

 

[Catherine St.Claire]

That point was made to show that SPs are human and can't remember sh-t of who they fucked. This is NOT a critique, it's only a fact and I don't blame the girl(s) because of the nature of the 'job'. This has nothing to do with this person who lied or not. The SP can't remember all guys that she fucked and this is ok; I am not debating that, I am only showing that it is not human to ask an SP to remember you because she fucked you : unless you are a regular, she cannot remember you (and it's ok!).

I understand why you made this reference, yes it is hard for some providers to remember who they see. But memories can be refreshed and I've given references years after I saw someone based on a few prompts from the guest requesting it. It's not that big of a deal to ask.

Actually, your comment showed why girls ask for references. Whether the provider remembered him or not, he knew he hadn't seen her before and manipulated the situation to get what he wanted. This isn't a client another provider might want to see. Ladies get called out if they lie but it's acceptable if a client does it to us. Of course any provider with half a brain isn't going to call a client out on the spot if he says he has seen her before, putting a guy in a difficult position isn't a wise thing to do from a safety standpoint and if she is at all customer service oriented she isn't going to want to make him feel like an ass. Even if she knew in her head that she hadn't seen him before she probably recognized it wasn't prudent to cause a scene and put her self at risk, either from an immediate situation or a bad review later. Many providers have a difficult time standing up for themselves to clients or calling a client out when they are out of line. If we try and screen these guys out we are being prima donnas because we have standards and don't want to see guys that would be comfortable pulling a fast one on us like this guy did. SITUATIONS LIKE THIS IS WHY PROVIDERS TRY TO VERIFY WITH REFERENCES! Just because we are sex workers doesn't mean that we don't deserve to right to set boundaries and have them respected which in this situation they clearly were not. We remember far more than you give us credit for, it isn't a fact that because of the "job" we don't remember who we fuck at work. Yes, sometimes we need a prompt but to say we have no memory of our clients is absurd.

We choose to verify the way we do because not all clients are trustworthy (as you pointed out with your friends behavior) and if a provider choses to ask for references, either provide them or walk away. Many touring providers don't have the time or the resources to go hunting for information unless they aren't busy. If they are busy, it's easier to just delete and move on to the next appointment request. It isn't about allowing another provider to assume the risk, there are other ways to verify a client that has never seen a provider, if he has it is nice to know that the client is going to be a worthy guest from someone who has seen him...

cat

 

[KathrynBardot]

My real concern is not one of safety or screening, and yes, a provider can choose whatever process they like, just as I can choose to see them or not. I simply have ethical concerns about providers outsourcing their screens to other providers and was looking for an alternative.

Yet you have no problem encouraging other gentlemen to TOFTT. Kind of ironic, isn't it?

 

[Eddie401]

... or posting these threads trying to rationalize your refusal, that just tells us that you are potentially a difficult client, one who does not want to play by our rules and may try to wiggle around other boundaries.

That's quite the leap. Despite the fact that I have no issues with providing a reference if asked (it's a two way trust thing, guys need to learn to accept it) statements like yours are why I would never give an SP my TERB handle. What next? "you're very aggressive on World of Warcraft, I don't trust you"... As far as projecting a persona...you might want to consider that statement yourself given that you're a known provider and alienating anonymous buyers with nonsense like that.

 

[Ryan1967]

Yet you have no problem encouraging other gentlemen to TOFTT. Kind of ironic, isn't it?

Nope...nice try though...I have never encouraged anyone to TOFTT...I have done it myself, but never encouraged others to do so. So no...not ironic in the least.

 

[Eddie401]

Yet you have no problem encouraging other gentlemen to TOFTT. Kind of ironic, isn't it?

You're equating safety with a bad lay? C'mon....

Like I said before I'd give a reference no problem. And most ladies even if you can't provide a reference will find a way to make it work. Once you have someone's name it's pretty easy to check them out. I sent someone to my Facebook page once haha (it felt weird but they could have figured it out on their own. Check out the pictures of my wife and kids, I'll be over to eat you like a sundae in 2 hours).

Despite this Ryan1967 raises an interesting point and one that I confess, I had never considered before he brought it up. Doesn't change anything for me but it's it's a good topic for discussion, something to kick around in this discussion forum.

That said, IMHO asking for references is really up to the individual. I know girls that started after a bad experience. I ask for a reference before hiring an electrician and he's not going to be stuffing his cock in me (thank god, electricians are already expensive enough) if an SP wants to take the precaution I see no ethical issue any more than me asking someone for a reference for any other skilled trade ;-)

 

[Ryan1967]

...I ask for a reference before hiring an electrician and he's not going to be stuffing his cock in me (thank god, electricians are already expensive enough) if an SP wants to take the precaution I see no ethical issue any more than me asking someone for a reference for any other skilled trade ;-)

Thanks Eddie for your support on my quest for a discussion...yes, that is what I was looking for.

On your electrician analogy...it be more like after you have checked your electrician's reference he (or she) turns to you and says..."awesome, can you please give me another skilled tradesperson that has done work for you for me to call to make sure you are not a shitty customer? Like maybe a plumber, roofer or general contractor?". I think that analogy is more apt in this case...no?

 

[KathrynBardot]

What next? "you're very aggressive on World of Warcraft, I don't trust you"... As far as projecting a persona...you might want to consider that statement yourself given that you're a known provider and alienating anonymous buyers with nonsense like that.

And how is that not a leap? For the record, I said "potentially" and "may". In my experience, clients who try to negotiate around our way of doing business - whether that is our screening methods, our fees, or our services - will often try to push their luck in other areas. I'm not saying everyone who does so WILL, but that it is certainly a red flag.

And ps., gamers are awesome. WoW, perhaps not so much

 

[Ryan1967]

So...bottom line...and I do understand what you are saying Kathryn...is that some providers might view my alternate suggestion as a "refusal" or "negotiation" and therefore raise a red flag that I would be a difficult client...so be it...my ethical concerns require that risk be taken. I guess I would need to avoid those providers...I hope that some would see it as a sign of trust (as Cat suggests) that I divulging my online persona to see my post history and whom I have seen. So far, one provider that asks for references has accepted this alternate, so I do know they are out there.

 

[Anynym]

I want everyone to be safe and comfortable, but I'm curious how anyone knows that anyone is who they might claim to be?

I would never post falsely, or claim to be someone else, but how does anyone know that it's really "Ryan" who's booking the appointment? What prevents some idiot from simply giving out someone else's handle from the board? Or, from posting a collection of reviews of events which never took place (keep it general enough and who can tell)? Who would have enough information to be able to discover the fraud, unless everyone knew each other by their anonymous handles and kept track of everyone they saw?

By all means, verify what information you can, but don't forget to verify all that's necessary to trust the result.

 

[too2shy]

I want everyone to be safe and comfortable, but I'm curious how anyone knows that anyone is who they might claim to be?

I would never post falsely, or claim to be someone else, but how does anyone know that it's really "Ryan" who's booking the appointment? What prevents some idiot from simply giving out someone else's handle from the board? Or, from posting a collection of reviews of events which never took place (keep it general enough and who can tell)? Who would have enough information to be able to discover the fraud, unless everyone knew each other by their anonymous handles and kept track of everyone they saw?

By all means, verify what information you can, but don't forget to verify all that's necessary to trust the result.

lol.. yuppp +1

 

[Ryan1967]

Exchanging or booking over PM usually mitigates this risk, most providers are on the other board and some are here as well. Again...I am not in the least trying to hide my online persona from any providers that I see.

I want everyone to be safe and comfortable, but I'm curious how anyone knows that anyone is who they might claim to be?

I would never post falsely, or claim to be someone else, but how does anyone know that it's really "Ryan" who's booking the appointment? What prevents some idiot from simply giving out someone else's handle from the board? Or, from posting a collection of reviews of events which never took place (keep it general enough and who can tell)? Who would have enough information to be able to discover the fraud, unless everyone knew each other by their anonymous handles and kept track of everyone they saw?

By all means, verify what information you can, but don't forget to verify all that's necessary to trust the result.

 

[LikeRedHeads]

Actually, your comment showed why girls ask for references. Whether the provider remembered him or not, he knew he hadn't seen her before and manipulated the situation to get what he wanted.
SITUATIONS LIKE THIS IS WHY PROVIDERS TRY TO VERIFY WITH REFERENCES!
cat

First of all you are assuming a lot of things about the SP who couldn't remember my friend. It is not rocket science: the brain can remember only a finite number of short term events and if the girl sees 35 guys a week (or about 1800 guys a year) there is no way her brain can remember all these guys (even with prompts).
Second, you are accusing a man who 'manipulated' a situation; if you set up boundaries or policies you should also have the means to enforce them. So if you offer BBBJ to your regulars, you should at least know who your regulars are, which wasn't the case for this SP. From my experience, a large majority of SPs lie and refuse service all the time so this SP could have done just that if she was sure the guy was a liar. You seem 'offended' that one guy lied to an SP; lol. I can only reproduce Too2shy's comment about SPs:

It's a good thing terb exists.. or we wouldn't have even the most basic "reference" for the 80% of the women in this trade who are a total waste of time.. who miss appointments, who don't come through with what they said they would, who cross boundaries into becoming straight con-artists and thieves.. who are often under the influence, or have poor hygiene.. don't look like their advertised photos..

.

Thirdly if you want 'to avoid situations like these' you don't ask for references, you set up a system for your memory (and may be stick with few regulars) but please don't blame the guys for your inability to remember your clients.

 

[incendiaryberlin]

That point was made to show that SPs are human and can't remember sh-t of who they fucked. This is NOT a critique, it's only a fact and I don't blame the girl(s) because of the nature of the 'job'. This has nothing to do with this person who lied or not. The SP can't remember all guys that she fucked and this is ok; I am not debating that, I am only showing that it is not human to ask an SP to remember you because she fucked you : unless you are a regular, she cannot remember you (and it's ok!).

First of all you are assuming a lot of things about the SP who couldn't remember my friend. It is not rocket science: the brain can remember only a finite number of short term events and if the girl sees 35 guys a week (or about 1800 guys a year) there is no way her brain can remember all these guys (even with prompts).
Second, you are accusing a man who 'manipulated' a situation; if you set up boundaries or policies you should also have the means to enforce them. So if you offer BBBJ to your regulars, you should at least know who your regulars are, which wasn't the case for this SP. From my experience, a large majority of SPs lie and refuse service all the time so this SP could have done just that if she was sure the guy was a liar. You seem 'offended' that one guy lied to an SP; lol. I can only reproduce Too2shy's comment about SPs:





Thirdly if you want 'to avoid situations like these' you don't ask for references, you set up a system for your memory (and may be stick with few regulars) but please don't blame the guys for your inability to remember your clients.

Wow, no SP EVER is seeing 1800 clients a year. Dude, you have no idea what you're talking about. Let's do some math: 1800 is seven clients a day, five days a week with no repeats. That's just not even sustainable OR logical. I mean, for real, what fucking planet are you on?