Refusing CPR

[mrsCALoki]

DO NOT PERFORMER CPR ON A BREATHING PERSON - Short Version

I sure am glad you never made it as a doctor.... we have to thank our lucky stars for that. The fact that you don't know that CPR doesn't just involve compressions is laughable.
I guess she stopped breathing .... maybe that's why they said she stopped breathing ....

slow down maybe you will remember what you typed. YOU'RE THE ONE WHO SAID SHE WAS 'STOPPED BREATHING' ..... duh .......................

Wow talk about perpetuating the empty headed little escort myth!

1) You must know a little about CPR based on your previous post. CPR by definition involves chest compression. All the comments about breaking ribs from other people who received training did not register?

2) YOU DO NOT DO CPR ON A BREATHING PATIENT.

3) How are you able to quote me correctly in the title and then change the wording in the body of your post? Do you have any respect for facts at all? "Stopped Breathing" is NOT the same "stopping Breathing". Yes I know the English is tortured but it is a direct quote from the video evidence.

4) Well no, they video said she died at the hospital. I have not heard what the cause of death was, have you? No one mentioned what protocol the paramedics followed when they got there. I assume they ventilated the woman to assist in her breathing while transporting her, at the very least they provided O2.

5) It is very important that everyone fully accept and realize that applying CPR is dangerous but an acceptable risk when done to a 'dead' person (no pulse). It is never appropriate to do it to someone breathing. Ventilation is still the gold standard in many situations. SOP for paramedics.

Why am I upset? Because what I can only assume is your your desire to make me seem incompetent and poorly trained has gone so far that you are risking someone believing you and putting someone at risk. Why not just go back to claiming I am not a prostitute because I only sold myself to one man for 4 months. Or that I must be a man. Or any-other personal attack that does not put others at risk of harm?

 

[blackrock13]

How can that be a legal obligation? Hard to believe.

There isn't. The fear in the US is spurious litigation, isn't it always.

 

[blackrock13]

that's the truth in US, good samaritan are prone to lawsuit. there was a case before that a good samaritan help a person in a vehicular accident and was charged with negligence due to he was not able to the stabilized the head when moving the person that keep the person paralised

Mistake #1. You only move the patient if not to move them is worse, but always pay special attention the the head and neck area when doing so. Now that the guidelines for CPR is less on mouth to mouth and more on chest compressions, there few instances where CPR can't be done on a person.

 

[mrsCALoki]

One has to wonder how someone like Loki develops the knack of turning everythread into a clusterfuck of argument and misinformation. I've seen "it" do it on a number of medical related topics as well as investment strategy and God-knows what else. It's almost a skill.

Seems you are not successfully extracting the facts from this thread. Lets review the posts. The actual words, not misquotes.

I just listened to the tape video again. Did you notice the woman was "barely breathing" and was "stopping breathing" ? Interesting. Heart had to be still beating. Lungs still working. I wonder why CPR was appropriate? Seems at most ventilation might be useful? But hey way too many facts missing to know what is really going on.

ventilation?? as in artificial respiration? Hey Doc ... do you know how long it's been since anyone used that term?? CPR in the combination of breathing and chest compressions. Cardio pulmonary .... heart and lungs.

Did you say you attended this course with Loki? you didn't pay much attention. Recently it was decided that 'ventiation' as you put it isn't even necessary. The amount of oxygen carried in the blood is enough to keep the brain alive if chest compressions are continued. UNLESS the person went down fighting for air.. ie drowning or choking.

Better brush up on that ... you still need these skills even if you have an AED as you claim.

This woman does not even recognize that ventilation is and is telling people to do CPR on a person who has a pulse, and is breathing. That is... well at best utterly uninformed.

I submitted a long post trying to explain to her that CPR can stop a beating heart. if anyone cares, just pop back to this post

Ok hun, lets try to give you enough information so you do not kill someone with your half baked ideas.....

One might expect her to just ignore it and let her inappropriate medical advice fade away, but she responded with:

I sure am glad you never made it as a doctor.... we have to thank our lucky stars for that. The fact that you don't know that CPR doesn't just involve compressions is laughable.
I guess she stopped breathing .... maybe that's why they said she stopped breathing ....

slow down maybe you will remember what you typed. YOU'RE THE ONE WHO SAID SHE WAS 'STOPPED BREATHING'..... duh .......................

Well that is just silly. The personal insults about me are of course par for the course. But she does not seem to understand that the corner stone of CPR is chest compression and you never ever do that to a patient with a pulse, let alone someone breathing.

Apparently some one is indeed misquoting. I suspect most terbites can read the words in red and decide for themselves.

People, there is only one important point in this topic. DO NOT DO CPR TO SOMEONE BREATHING.

I guess a second point is that never take medical advice from someone who does not even know what ventilation is

Nothing is really important or of value other than a few critical lessons.

DO NOT PERFORM CPR ON SOMEONE WHO IS BREATHING. If you know how ventilation or assisted breathing might add value, but never CPR.

From our in house lawyer, You should have a Living Will and it should be known to people near you (including co-workers, responders, etc).

Oh might also consider a last lesson... When you sign a document that limits medical intervention, you can expect limited medical intervention.

 

[colt]

Wow I guess GM used the term to fool me so I would look stupid using it We went there for a few days. Same for the Faculty of Culinary Arts, Faculty of Esthetics, etc etc. I bet the Faculty at the Canadian College of Performing arts will have a hissy fit when they discover they do not exist. Of course these are not ones where Loki taught. But most academies and many colleges have faculty. Including everything from Blasting to pastry. And I sort of guess some of them want anyone on their faculty working in the field with students to have first aid training.



I sort of got the impression that any first aid course approved by the WSIB was recognized Canada wide. So what first aid program they approve is not recognized Canada wide?

You seem hell bent on playing word games and claiming that all faculties are with a university.

I am not going to respond to every point of your little rant but I will point out that this is pretty much SOP for you when you go too far and get called on your b.s.. You retreat from your original language, accuse the other person of playing "word games" and try to make it seem like the other person is being unreasonable. To your specific points:

1) I have worked for GM, both as an employee and as a consultant. I have worked extensively with them, in more than one facility (US and Canadian) in areas of Health, Safety and new employee orientation. I have never heard anyone at GM refer to their "faculty". It is somewhat humorous that you are now hell bent on finding an application of the term "faculty" that is used outside universities and other institutions of higher learning and have lost focus of the fact that you also have to find such an application where it would be half way plausible for the employer to demand first-aid/cpr certification;

2) I never said that only universities have faculties - I mentioned universities and other institutions of higher learning - the faculties of culinary arts, esthetics and the Canadian College of Performing Arts are all certainly institutions of higher learning - my original point, as you well know, was that none of these institutions have a blanket requirement that part-time faculty members be first-aid/cpr certified - unless it was absolutely material to their position. I already pointed out that some faculties certainly would require it (pharmacy, allied health, etc.) - not all would however. "Loki" has suggested that his background is in engineering - I guarantee you engineering facutly (college, university or otherwise), particulary adjuncts, are not required to be first aid/cpr certified.

3) Again - your word games are not particularly clever. I never said that WSIB first adi courses are not "recognized" across Canada. Indeed I have no idea what "recognized" means. "Loki" said that they are the "standard" across Canada. They are not "the" singular standard across Canada - WSIB has no jurisdiction outside Ontario and is not recognized as having any authority outside Ontario - it does not establish a national "standard". Just because their course might be accepted or "recognized" by different organizations across Canada does not mean that they are the "standard". Let me save you the trouble of accusing me of "playing word games" and engaging in semantics just because you do not know enough words and are not clever enough by half to back out of this little lie you concocted.

 

[mrsCALoki]

You wanna know what's funny? when this debate first started she was on the keyboard every second. Then she disappeared (I assume to hit up her friends Wiki and Google) for a couple hours. Then upon her return she has PAGES of information on CPR ... she posted like five times in a row on bottom of page three I think ... I didn't waste my time reading it but I did open a few just to confirm my suspicions. She spent that time offline doing research so she / he could come back all "informed" ... just like a med student would be... on things as elementary as CPR. Really funny.

Looking at those pesky facts again:

03-05-2013, 05:15 PM
ventilation?? as in artificial respiration? Hey Doc ... do you know how long it's been since anyone used that term?? CPR in the combination of breathing and chest compressions. Cardio pulmonary .... heart and lungs.

03-05-2013, 05:15 PM
I have to go be mommy, but may answer when I get back. You think applying full force CPR on a breathing subject is a good idea? Ventilation is not CPR lol

Within 2 minutes I call you on the warped and dangerous idea of CPR on a breathing subject as well as your ignorance of patient ventilation. Seems I knew you had issues.

I did not have time to type in along response.

I drop in when life is not keeping me occupied. If I am on watch I spend a lot of time on the internet to stay awake . Terb is amusing. I also have and will always be AFK if 3rd starts to cry or needs me.


By the way, even your info on CPR is outdated. CPR has not been defined as "the combination of breathing and chest compressions since 2010.." Several people mentioned that but I saw no reason to point it out.

I find it really funny how you are so desperate to distract people from your foolish and potentially harmful post by attacking my schedule in posting.

 

[rafterman]

Can you get in trouble for performing CPR?

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...enial_can_you_be_sued_for_performing_cpr.html

Interesting article from Slate on this issue. Also the comments posts are instructive. Notwithstanding the tv medical show model where everybody survives the odds are pretty low of coming back from cardiac arrest particularly for a very elderly patient.

 

[mrsCALoki]

1) I have worked for GM, both as an employee and as a consultant. I have worked extensively with them, in more than one facility (US and Canadian) in areas of Health, Safety and new employee orientation. I have never heard anyone at GM refer to their "faculty".

Gee never been to GMI I guess. LOL

It is somewhat humorous that you are now hell bent on finding an application of the term "faculty" that is used outside universities and other institutions of higher learning and have lost focus of the fact that you also have to find such an application where it would be half way plausible for the employer to demand first-aid/cpr certification;

I am not going to tell you where he was teaching. He and I just do not wish to expose ourselves that much to Terb members. Examples? In the field forestry and mining industry. Demolition / explosives training. Any where that your students have a high risk of injury.

2) I never said that only universities have faculties - I mentioned universities and other institutions of higher learning - the faculties of culinary arts, esthetics and the Canadian College of Performing Arts are all certainly institutions of higher learning - my original point, as you well know, was that none of these institutions have a blanket requirement that part-time faculty members be first-aid/cpr certified - unless it was absolutely material to their position. I already pointed out that some faculties certainly would require it (pharmacy, allied health, etc.) - not all would however. "Loki" has suggested that his background is in engineering - I guarantee you engineering facutly (college, university or otherwise), particulary adjuncts, are not required to be first aid/cpr certified. [/QUOTE]

Loki has taught Engineering and Statistics at universities. Mostly at night and certainly not for the extra money. He also literally had a book shelf full of courses he had developed and taught in various forums. And yes I have read most of them. My favorite was "Direct vs Indirect Cultures". So what is your point? He has taught courses far away from the safety of a classroom. So what? He was not born in the corner of a C suite office. And he is not boring mono-direction individual. I would never have married him if he was.

3) Again - your word games are not particularly clever. I never said that WSIB first adi courses are not "recognized" across Canada. Indeed I have no idea what "recognized" means. "Loki" said that they are the "standard" across Canada. They are not "the" singular standard across Canada - WSIB has no jurisdiction outside Ontario and is not recognized as having any authority outside Ontario - it does not establish a national "standard". Just because their course might be accepted or "recognized" by different organizations across Canada does not mean that they are the "standard". Let me save you the trouble of accusing me of "playing word games" and engaging in semantics just because you do not know enough words and are not clever enough by half to back out of this little lie you concocted.

Do you realize what you just said? LOL Red Cross certainly seems to be a standard across Canada. Who cares what your WSIB’s authority is, Red Cross is a standard.

Of course I do not know much about your political structures for industrial safety in Canada. Why would I? Why would I care? Why would anyone assume I did? I have a very rudimentary understanding of the Workman Compensation Board thing. I know that at the course I took with Loki they said the course satisfied all the UofT requirements, (lots of students in the class room), was approved Canada wide, and the WSIIIB whatever had approved the course. WTF, who cares? I know I do not care if each province approved it individually. I do not care if it was approved by the WwwBBCCcolt agency. I know it was approved by the WSIIB and is good enough for UofT and across Canada. Why would anyone not working in the industry care about more details?

Why would you assume I would know or even care about that bureaucratic stuff?

You are trying to hang me based on words used about 3 years ago? I believe Loki said "faculty". I know he said he needed to go through a re-qualification or take the course over to continue teaching something he was teaching. Since the course had just changed he decided to take it over and wanted me to go with him. I like being with him so I did. Big deal. The only important part was the reference to course content. Anyone who has re-qualified in the last few years can confirm that part.

Really, who gives a fuck? The word “faculty” is a common term and used by countless schools. I listed the first few that came up in a quick search.

This is getting boring. Let’s just pretend he was doing a course on felling trees for the “Academy of Tree Choppers” and that they insisted that all their faculty had first aid training because of the wood chips in the eyes issue . Does that really have any impact on the basic statement I made?

1)
Hubby had to renew his ‘first aid / CPR’ qualification to maintain his part time faculty status and he dragged me along. During the training and the drills it was stressed to first identify yourself, your qualification as a “trained first responder” and get permission before proceeding (unconscious adults are assumed to have given it.

The only meat there is getting permission. Anyone taking the Red Cross course would have heard the same thing. So what is the point off this conversation. You are not going to get information on what web page to look for Loki’s real name. 

I admit I have little or knowledge of the WCB system. Why would I? Why would I care. At my level of interest knowing what governing body approved what course is utterly boring. The Red Cross course content is a recognized standard across Canada.

So for me Red Cross saying to ask permission before providing First Aid is good enough.

Damn I got suckered in again and am arguing with a ….. a terb arguer.

 

[mrsCALoki]

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...enial_can_you_be_sued_for_performing_cpr.html

Interesting article from Slate on this issue. Also the comments posts are instructive. Notwithstanding the tv medical show model where everybody survives the odds are pretty low of coming back from cardiac arrest particularly for a very elderly patient.

+1

The point that CPR has significant risk was driven home to me when I saw the ribs had speared the lungs of a cadaver someone had tried to save using CPR. (before I get the bad jokes, they had applied CPR when the living individual collapsed, not on the cadaver after the fact).

But.... if the heart has stopped the person is dead. So the risk of damage cannot make them more dead.

But you need to be very certain the heart has stopped.

 

[Rockslinger]

Lots of comments on the pros and cons of CPR, especially on the elderly. Does anybody have any experience with heart defibrillators? Is it a better alternative to CPR? We have one at our local hockey rink but I have been warned to never touch it or use it on a real person.

 

[Rockslinger]

However, an AED (automatic external defibrillator) speaks. As soon as you open the container it starts talking to you, tells you exactly what to do in a rather monotonous voice.

Is it a better alternative to CPR?

 

[Rockslinger]

Performing full CPR in conjunction with an automated external defibrillator (AED) immediately following cardiac arrest can double a person’s chance of survival.

Interesting. There was a hockey player (Fisher?) whose heart stopped and they brought him back but I don't remember how. Then there was a Canadian hockey player in Italy whose heart stopped when hit by a puck or stick and he died.

 

[mrsCALoki]

Lots of comments on the pros and cons of CPR, especially on the elderly. Does anybody have any experience with heart defibrillators? Is it a better alternative to CPR? We have one at our local hockey rink but I have been warned to never touch it or use it on a real person.

s

This is more of a "is a sex provider better than masturbating" type question. It depends.

There are different kinds of defibrillators with different safety features and different power levels. Older units and manual ones can stop a heart even easier than it can start one, so lets limit ourselves to AEDs

Their are many models and manufacturers out there but pretty much all have a basic "if there is a pulse etc DO NOT LET THE OPERATOR shock the subject.

AS far as hurting the subject or making it worse if they are properly maintained etc they have proven to be VERY safe.

Better than CPR? Again hard to give a simple answer. If you have the unit beside you, and know how to use it I might give a few quick CPR pumps, and then hook it up. Or I might just hook it up and give it a shot. Depends on the risk assessment. How long was the subject not getting blood to his or her brain? How young and healthy are they? How long will it take to get it set up?

Look at it this way. Your boat is leaking. Do you bail (CPR) or patch the hole? Bailing will not 'fix' the problem, but it can keep you afloat for a long time. Make sense?

One of the problems with giving a straight answer when it comes to medical issues is it is seldom black and white. For example smoke in your lungs is bad for you. Sucking on a cig puts smoke in your lungs. But will it kill you? Maybe. How long will it take? No one knows. It is all probabilities.

Sadly wannabe medical experts love giving advice without knowing much except what they pick up on TV etc.

So best answer..... Biggest issue in using modern AEDs like the one in the average rink is electrode placement. It is relatively critical and misplacement reduces effectiveness.

My advice ideally take the course on the machine. It takes about 10 minutes become proficient. At the very least read or listen to the instructions long before you need it. Trying to figure out pad placement from scratch will consume precious minutes. But none the less..... unlikely you can hurt an adult with one. You might not be giving them the best chance of survival if you do not know what you should do.

Check out http://www.resus.org.uk/pages/aed.pdf

Does that answer your questions?

 

[mrsCALoki]

Interesting. There was a hockey player (Fisher?) whose heart stopped and they brought him back but I don't remember how. Then there was a Canadian hockey player in Italy whose heart stopped when hit by a puck or stick and he died.

The words you are using are common laymen terms, but they are misleading. The heart does not actually stop. The pulse stops and the heart muscles just sort of spasms out of control. If the heart is actually stopped it is unlikely the patient will live without immediate medical attention. The hear muscles can go into spasm from many causes. Electric shock and a blow or compression to it are common causes.

The trick is to force oxygenated blood through the body, and get the spasms to get organized and start pumping again. 2 different tasks.

 

[Aardvark154]

No more than what I see on the Internet, but anyone interested might contact either

St. John Ambulance Provincial AED Coordinator
416-923-8411
1-800-268-7581

or

http://cprandaed.ca/mississauga/

To see about AED training

 

[Rockslinger]

There was a hockey player (Fisher?) whose heart stopped and they brought him back but I don't remember how.

(Ok, I decided to use Google.) On November 21, 2005, in a game against the Nashville Predators, Detroit Red Wing defenseman Jiri Fischer (age 25), was unconscious for 6 minutes. Using CPR and AED, Lynn LeAnnais brought Jiri back to life. Jiri was fortunate that there was someone at the rink willing to do CPR and knew how to use an AED.

 

[great bear]

(Ok, I decided to use Google.) On November 21, 2005, in a game against the Nashville Predators, Detroit Red Wing defenseman Jiri Fischer (age 25), was unconscious for 6 minutes. Using CPR and AED, Lynn LeAnnais brought Jiri back to life. Jiri was fortunate that there was someone at the rink willing to do CPR and knew how to use an AED.

Shit thats nothing, the Leafs have been unconscious for the last 20 years.

 

[Rockslinger]

Shit thats nothing, the Leafs have been unconscious for the last 20 years.

Ok, let's get out the AED! Seriously, the Leafs are doing ok so far. Winning ugly in most games but winning ugly is still much better than losing pretty. I mentioned hockey and AED because we have one at our local rink and I think the plan is to have one in every rink.

 

[SchlongConery]

Ok, let's get out the AED! Seriously, the Leafs are doing ok so far. Winning ugly in most games but winning ugly is still much better than losing pretty. I mentioned hockey and AED because we have one at our local rink and I think the plan is to have one in every rink.

Blah blah blah :eyebrows:

 

[Rockslinger]

Blah blah blah :eyebrows:

Looks like you and your comrade got tired of beating up toughb and Mrs CAloki so its my turn again, eh?