A 1% tax for transit

[simon482]

Secondly, you pay FUCK ALL in fuel taxes as to what it costs to build highways. FUCK ALL, regardless of how much fuel or licensing fees you think you pay. I would be all for MTO coming up with a calculation as to what it costs to build highways in the province and charging users tolls based on how much it costs to maintain the roads for each user. You my friend would be facing some massive bills (though obviously all these costs would just need to be passed on down to the consumer).
.

i just did a little math and research.

current fuel tax rate = 14.3cents per litre.
my average fueling = 439-440 litres.
at that rate per year = 7980$ per year in fuel tax.
boss has 35 trucks = 279,363$.

that is not really fuck all and compared to what you pay is a fortune. now assuming the 2006 numbers are accurate (which they are probably low) there are just over 227,000 trucks in ontario. using the same 7980$ a week over 52 weeks = 1,121,513$ just in fuel tax. not including the shit tonne of other stuff we have to pay and are subject to. that is a low number as well considering with "IFTA" we collect taxes from trucks from the states and other provinces. that is just a rough estimate, i would hardly consider a low estimate of 1.2 million a year to be fuck all. also you can't blame truck for the canadian gov't selling it's only toll road which last i checked when i worked with molson cost the transport division a little over 200,000$ for a year in tolls for 35 trucks in the molson fleet. which if you look at the fuel tax number they are the same, so the tolls and fuel tax are the same, weird huh. perhaps the people that know, know more than you.

as for the horse shit remark, i went and read that old thread. i never posted links on your trucks=10,000 cars, i said i didn't understand and you went off like a lunatic insulting me and the industry and people that drive trucks like you think you are better. it wasn't me that argued with you. so you can apologize for that.

 

[msog87]

privatize the ttc and give every torontonian a tax cut. its funny how this approach is demonized like as if we have such a great system now, truth is it can't get any worse well actually it can it gets worse everyyear and more expensive.

 

[Polaris]

This is a yes or no question.

I think, it will be more like let's make a deal.

The 1% sales tax for Toronto, that suggestion is the most reasonable tax I have heard, provided it is only used to build subways.

I would agree with it provided these conditions.

1% or 2% sales tax for a limited time only, 5 years.

Cancel all street car projects.

Build subways along all of Eglington, downtown relief line, Sheppard east to the Scarborough Town Center, west to connect to the Spadina line.

Cut wages for the TTC union.

Cut more gravy from City Hall, at least half of middle management.

Automate the entire fare paying system to layoff redundant TTC fare collectors.

Raise TTC fares according to the cost of fuel and energy.

Otherwise, if these conditions are not met in some way shape or form, there will be no support to give the politicians more money. Who want to give the clowns at City Hall more money?

Seriously?
http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/1...-ready-to-kick-fellow-councillor-in-the-nuts/

:Eek:

 

[MyHobbyist]

I'm game.
I'd pay
Toronto needs a much better transportation system

 

[fuji]

not really. a lot of cars paying a lot of tax. i think we would be better of if we had a gov't that didn't waste an incredible amount of money.

Well let's ban the use of any tax money other than fuel tax, parking fees, and other driver paid fees for road work, mto salaries, bridges, traffic courts, traffic police, etc.

If fuel tax doesn't go up great, but my bet is it will have to go way up.

 

[fuji]

there are just over 227,000 trucks in ontario. using the same 7980$ a week over 52 weeks = 1,121,513$ just in fuel tax.

At that rate fuel taxes paid by trucks in Ontario will repay the 1.6 billion it cost Ontario taxpayers to build the 427 by the year 3466 AD. And that is just one highway.

Oh, by 92921 AD you will have covered the cost of the land the highway is on too. Yeah, 91 thousand years later.

You pay fuck all in fuel tax. Plainly our society needs roads and trucks to function but don't have any illusion about paying your own way. Your driving is heavy subsidized by the Ontario tax payer.

 

[HEYHEY]

You guys with your truck/fuel tax debate. Don't forget about IFTA and the fact that every single truck that drives through this province has to pay for every single kilometer they have driven.


As for the 1% tax can someone explain to me where the money from the HST has gone? Last i checked it was a lot more than 1% increase,we should be able to build a gold transit system out of that money alone. oh right, it was pissed away by the politicians on stupid shit.

We don't need more taxes, we need people who don't spend like 4 year olds

 

[trtinajax]

Why restrict it to a 1 or 2 per cent sales tax. Let's just get it over with quickly. Stop the constant nibbling away at people's earnings & assets. Tax 100% of everybody's income & assets and then Canada will be a far better place to live. The politicans know best how to spend our money - look at e-Health, Ornge, Power plants, windmills, etc etc etc.

 

[james t kirk]

You guys with your truck/fuel tax debate. Don't forget about IFTA and the fact that every single truck that drives through this province has to pay for every single kilometer they have driven.


As for the 1% tax can someone explain to me where the money from the HST has gone? Last i checked it was a lot more than 1% increase,we should be able to build a gold transit system out of that money alone. oh right, it was pissed away by the politicians on stupid shit.

We don't need more taxes, we need people who don't spend like 4 year olds

Ontario has a 15 billion dollar deficit. The HST generated some additional revenue, but in the overall scheme of things - it's not a lot.

As far as "stupid shit" - well, like what? Education? Health Care? Infrastructure?

While I have no doubt that there is waste in the Province of Ontario, I doubt it's 15 billion worth of "stupid shit". The truth is that the tax base in Ontario has been decimated by the recession and the flight of the manufacturing sector. The other truth is that we are probably living beyond our means given the economy in the province of Ontario.

 

[james t kirk]

as for the horse shit remark, i went and read that old thread. i never posted links on your trucks=10,000 cars, i said i didn`t understand and you went off like a lunatic insulting me and the industry and people that drive trucks like you think you are better. it wasn`t me that argued with you. so you can apologize for that.

Really?

Nice try.

This is your first response to me posting THE FACT that one fully ladden highway truck does as much damage as 10,000 car passes.

the industry is a lot more regulated than you think. you`re really just talking out of your ass right now. the fully loaded truck doing the same as 10,000 car passes is just a retarded number that you made up or found on some other anti truck website. we are an essential part of the economy and if you doubt it what would happen if every truck in north america decided one day to just pull over to the side of the road for a month ? your trains won`t be moving cuz fuel won`t be delivered and everything your used to having in your everyday life will dry up real quick. it`s clear you hate trucks, that`s cool your entitled to have your own opinion no matter how stupid it is but your life would fall apart without us, so your welcome you ungrateful twit.

Link to the previous thread - please show me where I went off like a lunatic. All I did was post a scientific fact and prove you wrong:

https://terb.cc/vbulletin/showthrea...-the-highway-makes-me-crazy&highlight=freight


Your second response:

i am admittedly horrible with math so bear with me on this one.

average car weighs 4000 pounds, a fully loaded truck with the heaviest no permit load is 80,000 gross vehicle weight. 4000 pounds x`s 20 equals 80,000 so in my mind it would only be the equivalent of 20 cars. again i am not to good with math so you might need to explain that one to me.

 

[oldjones]

I like the user pay system. You use it then you pay the actual cost. 416/905 doesn't matter.

So we'll get rid of the hidden and inadequate gas tax and use GPS to toll every metre a car drives? Not forgetting to add in pollution costs, as well as roadbuilding and maintenance when setting rates. Oh, and the traffic enforcement costs, after all every transit passenger pays for theirs.

That'd be user pay. But why stop at transit? let's do schools, hospitals, food inspections, parks, border control, garbage collection, public safety (I'm not sure whether the 'users' are those who are kept safe, or the arsonists and thugs? Do tell. Do people in dangerous neighbourhoods use more or get less of those services? Or do those with more to lose get more, though their nabes show fewer occurances?)

User pay is a fine concept, but no one wants it if they have to pay. Not even on the trivial level of 5¢ for a shopping bag. As locked into rote-wing slogans as he is, even our Mayor dimly, realizes user pay is not always the best way. When it comes to organizing a community is broadly various as Toronto, strict user-pay would destroy it.

 

[onthebottom]

The taxes wind up at the wrong level of government.

One solution certainly would be to give the city, which does a lot of road building, a share of the gas tax--but try getting the Federal and Provincial levels to agree to that.[/QUOTE]

Laws could change that. Couldn't the city simply add a gas tax equal to what it spends on roads?

OTB

 

[dr tongue]

There is a campaign afoot to have Toronto (and presumably the whole GTA) impose a 1% sales tax to be used exclusively to fund transit initiatives, specifically a new East/West subway line.

The reason this makes so much sense is two-fold. Firstly it is a consumption tax which effects everyone regardless of income, and the more you shop the more you pay. Secondly it is happening at a time when the penny is being discontinued, and retailers will be rounding up to the next nickel on cash purchases.
When Harper lowered the GST from 7% to 5% did you feel all that extra coin in your pocket and go out to celebrate? The impact was negligible, and so would this initiative. So much fairer than TTC hikes or property tax hikes. I can't believe the poll is not overwhelmingly in fovour.

 

[SirWanker]

How about a specific tax only for public transit?
It would be collected from the Federal level then dispersed based on:
- region
- population-base
In that manner the funds will be returned to the appropriate areas in the amounts reflecting the population density.

For the individuals who question about paying for something that they do not use, what is your opinion about your contributions to Canada's universal healthcare system?
Public transit really should be treated in the same manner.

 

[simon482]

Really?

Nice try.

This is your first response to me posting THE FACT that one fully ladden highway truck does as much damage as 10,000 car passes.




Link to the previous thread - please show me where I went off like a lunatic. All I did was post a scientific fact and prove you wrong:

https://terb.cc/vbulletin/showthrea...-the-highway-makes-me-crazy&highlight=freight


Your second response:

And then i admitted i was wrong. Show where i posted links like you said i did and i can show where you insult drivers and come off like you think you are better than them. That thread makes you look like an arrogant self righteous asshole. Yes you are still an ungrateful twit.

 

[simon482]

At that rate fuel taxes paid by trucks in Ontario will repay the 1.6 billion it cost Ontario taxpayers to build the 427 by the year 3466 AD. And that is just one highway.

Oh, by 92921 AD you will have covered the cost of the land the highway is on too. Yeah, 91 thousand years later.

You pay fuck all in fuel tax. Plainly our society needs roads and trucks to function but don't have any illusion about paying your own way. Your driving is heavy subsidized by the Ontario tax payer.

Good thing trucks are not the only vehicles paying fuel tax then. Should drop that time frame of yours quite a bit.

 

[fmahovalich]

There is a black market economy out there......that would easily pay for transit.

Take me....I made over a hundred grand last years...paid like 20 or 25 k off the top in income taxes....CPP. EI...I paid my fair share.

Now take Escorts for instance... I'm sure the chatty lively ones in here made the same 100k and more last year.....
Did they pay 20 to 25 k in taxes? Did they pay their share?

How to do it? Not sure?

Just sayin!

 

[james t kirk]

It is interesting to look at the Poll Results.

At the current time, 56% have voted "no new taxes" to fund transit expansion, while only 44% have voted yes.

I thought about this and I wondered how many who voted NO are 905'ers and drive everywhere they go and so to them, it's a question of funding something that they don't use, so "fuck you, I don't want to pay for it". I would wager most. (The poll could have been broken down into "I live in the 416 (yes / no) and I live outside the 416 (yes / no)" but then I suspect that some would vote that they lived in the 416 when most likely they do not as if a poll on TERB was somehow a referendum.) From reading the Lounge over the years, it is clear to me as a 416 resident that most posters on TERB do not live in Toronto, but the outlaying suburban areas where the car is king.

But looking at it in the broader context - a new tax to fund transit expansion in Toronto and the GTA - how do we pay for it. There are the predictable rants on here from those who go on about somehow banning the unions, etc. etc. Then there is the predictable rants from the predicable posters about "I pay fuel taxes for my roads, so transit users should pay for their transit"

But it does not address funding of new transit and clearly the status quo (despite what the 905 TERB contingent might think) is not good enough.

Given the above, the best thing that I can see is Road Tolls.

Make the users of the roads pay for road usage in Toronto. Install 407 style tolls on the DVP, the Gardiner, Dundas, Queensway, etc.

After that, you would need to either increase property taxes in Toronto (a special levie), or a GTA sales tax where the tax collected in Toronto went to TTC transit expansion and the tax collected in the 905/ 519 went to fund GO Transit projects.

People often forget that in the past, the City of Toronto had special levies in order to pay for large civil engineering infrastructure projects. Water treatment comes to mind. Back in the day, the populace had to pony up special levies to PAY for the construction of water and sewage treatment plants. There hasn't been a special levy in Toronto to fund large civil engineering projects since the time of RC Harris and the Prince Edward Viaduct (Bloor Viaduct) as far as I am aware and we as a populace have become accustomed to this. Maybe it's time we took a lesson from RC Harris and do what we have to do.

BTW, if memory serves, when they built the viaduct (and Leaside) it was put to a vote on whether or not the city should build the bridges (with the associated levie) and the answer was NO on 2 occasions. Finally, the city managed to sell the construction of the viaduct to the local residents way back when and the bridge was built. Now one looks at the question and one thinks, "how in god's green earth did anyone vote no to building the viaduct" but they did. If there's one thing in this world I've learned, it's that people are fucking cheap when it comes to spending money on anything but themselves.

 

[oldjones]

There is a black market economy out there......that would easily pay for transit.

Take me....I made over a hundred grand last years...paid like 20 or 25 k off the top in income taxes....CPP. EI...I paid my fair share.

Now take Escorts for instance... I'm sure the chatty lively ones in here made the same 100k and more last year.....
Did they pay 20 to 25 k in taxes? Did they pay their share?

How to do it? Not sure?

Just sayin!

I bolded the important bit; it's what simon, kirk and fuji are going round and round on, as well as my reply to Mod100, and others. Everyone believes we're already paying our share (the Ford Nation seem to believe they're overpaying, according to Rob), and only favour extra taxes for the 'free-riders', who may well be as mythical as Fordian gravy, since no one's ever found much of either despite years of searching.

Suppose we focus on that 'fair share' phrase when we talk about taxes. What makes a share 'fair'? The OP's across the board 1% may seem fair because it's equal, but is it fair to tax the minimum wage single mom who needs her hour and a half TTC bus and subway rides to pay the same as Mr. Range Rover with his assigned parking space at the office he drives to without having her clunker slow him down? He'll hardly notice, and still put money away at year's end. For someone who spends every cent just to live, it's like hiking her income tax, and she'll pay it outta the food money.

Transit benefits more than riders. You cannot have a dense, closely connected urban core depending only on private cars. Not physically possible, even LA where cars rule could not, and the've now got subways and are building more. Any recent NYC footage will remind you that private cars are almost extinct in Manhattan (taxis are transit too, they're just not mass transit). Like the sewers, water supply and roads, it's how the city moves its lifeblood.

The real question should be: TANSTAAFL. We're all gonna pay, privately, publicly, user or driver, but what's my fair share?

 

[Jennifer_]

... it's so shortsighted to not see the importance of public transit or understand how transit affects all of us. Hell - I walk everywhere bc I live in a walkable neighborhood.... but I believe it benefits everyone in the GTA to subsidize both roads and transit....

I fak'n walk 90% of the time.... shit if taxes were to be based on usage id be laughing.... Whether you ride it or not you still benefit from it. I'M honestly perplexed by the inability of so many to grasp the broader picture.
.