Dieppe

[Insidious Von]

Tonight at 8.00pm, on the History Channel, a documentary on the WW II raid on Dieppe will be aired. As Canadians we should all watch it.

But the premise disturbs me.

The misbegotten raid was a product of a personal rivalry between Ian Fleming and Canadian born William Stephenson (Intrepid). Fleming wanted to one up Stephenson as top spymaster and the Dieppe raid was his brainchild. If these allegations are true, it means that the creator of 007 has the blood of brave Canadians on his hands.

 

[dirkd101]

I never heard that before Insidious.

Dieppe was a testing of sorts though. A probing of German defenses at a fortified port. How important air cover was needed. The measure of equipment available to them at that time and its effectiveness.
The Allies needed alot of information in order to pull off the D-day landings and Dieppe was the answer to most of their questions, including getting off the beaches and reembarkation from the beaches after the raid. It's unfortunate it was Canadian boys primarily, but it was a much needed raid in order to put the D-day battle plan in order.
If that raid had had far less casualties it would have been easier to take. Brave souls landed that day and I am sure they helped save many lives on D-day itself.

 

[Celticman]

All of the Dieppe information that has flowed over the decades has sounded good, but essentially is lipstick on a pig. As a stand alone issue, it was badly planned and a lot of the (escaped) blame lies at the feet of Lord Louis Mountbatten.

 

[Aardvark154]

The aniversary of which was yesterday.

 

[Keebler Elf]

All of the Dieppe information that has flowed over the decades has sounded good, but essentially is lipstick on a pig. As a stand alone issue, it was badly planned and a lot of the (escaped) blame lies at the feet of Lord Louis Mountbatten.

Was going to say the same thing. While there were important lessons learned, the primary driver was to launch a SUCCESSFUL raid against the Germans to show that the Western Allies were capable of at least doing something to distract the Germans from the Eastern Front. Dieppe was a disaster and while lessons learned are important, that doesn't justify the fiasco that occurred.

One of the interesting lesser known facts about the Dieppe raid was that one of the greatest air battles of the war was taking place in the skies overhead.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dieppe_Raid

 

[basketcase]

I don't buy the guy's thesis. The simplest idea is that Flemming and his intelligence unit were merely tagging along since Dieppe was one of their listed targets.

Having read a couple of books on the raid, the Canadians fought hard against significant resistance to get our boys into action. If the purpose of the raid was merely intelligence gathering, there would have been much more support from the navy and air force. At most I'd think that Flemming and co. had a role in getting the raid put back on after it was first shut down.

 

[Keebler Elf]

I don't buy the guy's thesis. The simplest idea is that Flemming and his intelligence unit were merely tagging along since Dieppe was one of their listed targets.

Just watched it and was going to say the same thing. I don't buy it for the same reason you've cited. It could very well have been that the raid was put in place and then Flemming said, "Shit! This is the perfect opportunity to establish an intel assault unit (like the Germans used in Crete/Greece) and grab the code stuff during all the chaos."

If the whole purpose was to simply steal the code books, why not a parachute drop or a midnight insertion behind enemy lines? Seems like overkill if the entire purpose was to grab some code books and rotors. Also, that's a HUGE investment being made on a high risk proposition (the first thing every Signals person would be taught is how to destroy the code books and rotors).

 

[John Galt 2012]

An interesting aspect of the Dieppe raid was the role played by the 10 man "bodyguard" for the RAF radar boffin sent to gather intel at the Freya radar site. A big chance was taken sending him as he dare not be allowed to be captured by the germans. To that end his bodyguard had a duel role. They were with the South Sask.

There is a great book " Green Beach" about this element of the raid.

.

 

[buttercup]

All sorts of reasons for Dieppe.

Stalin was pushing the western allies to "do something".

The British wanted to convince Stalin (and convince the Americans) just how hopeless invading across the channel really was.

Churchill and the British quailed at the thought of attacking across the channel, and wanted to persuade the Americans to get at Germany through Greece and Yugoslavia.

One can't be pleased that Dieppe failed -- but at the same time, if it had been a success, D-day would have been brought forward, with less planning and fewer resources -- with possibly disastrous results.

Sacrificing lives in war can be looked on, now, as justified if the gain was worth the loss. The upside of the Dieppe failure was enormous. The losses at Dieppe helped focus large efforts on what was going to be needed to make D-day a success. The Dieppe raid was the only (or one of the very few) water-borne invasions in WW2 that was driven back -- not least because of the lessons learned there.

 

[basketcase]

As an engineer and a history fan, I am still amazed at the fallout from the raid in terms of the infeasibility of taking a functioning harbour and the decision to bring their own harbours with them. The Mulberry harbours were really a phenomenal creation.


In terms of high risk missions, the Brits have never had a problem throwing colonials into something like this.

 

[Insidious Von]

After watching the documentary I was wrong in my speculation, there was no rivalry between Fleming and Stephenson. In fact the latter had not returned from the United States when the raid occurred. The unfortunate part is that the failure to pinch the upgraded Enigma Machine meant that the war would be extended a further six months with millions more lives lost.

Yes to the British the colonials were expendable; Canadians remained in Hong Kong to face the Japanese while the British evacuated. That and the conduct of the Siege of Tobruk, as told to me by my father, is why I refer to the English as scifosi.

 

[oldjones]

Was going to say the same thing. While there were important lessons learned, the primary driver was to launch a SUCCESSFUL raid against the Germans to show that the Western Allies were capable of at least doing something to distract the Germans from the Eastern Front. Dieppe was a disaster and while lessons learned are important, that doesn't justify the fiasco that occurred.

One of the interesting lesser known facts about the Dieppe raid was that one of the greatest air battles of the war was taking place in the skies overhead.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dieppe_Raid

Of course the "Message to Uncle Joe" aspect would work, even if the raid was unsuccessful. "Gosh, we'd just love to do a landing and open a Western Front, but you can see from the Dieppe slaughter, that's gonna be a bigger job than anyone—even those crazy Canucks we used as shock troops in the last war—is ready for just now. Be patient; retreat a tad more. We'll come eventually".

 

[diehard]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dieppe_Raid

Allied analysis

The lessons learned at Dieppe essentially became the textbook of “what not to do” in future amphibious operations, and laid the framework for the Normandy landings two years later. Most notably, Dieppe highlighted:

the need for preliminary artillery support, including aerial bombardment;[9]
the need for a sustained element of surprise;
the need for proper intelligence concerning enemy fortifications;
the avoidance of a direct frontal attack on a defended port city;
the need for proper re-embarkation craft

Einstein award...

 

[Aardvark154]

Yes to the British the colonials were expendable.

Needless to say your opinion is your opinion, however, that really isn't a true statement.

 

[babemagnet]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dieppe_Raid



Einstein award...

Yup. I remember seeing programs on Dieppe before, and someone,probably British, summed it up by saying " we learned valuable lessons from Dieppe." The German who summed up his take on it said "we learned some valuable lessons too" like, it is easy shooting rats in a barrel.

 

[scouser1]

Lord Mountbatten had a boat E I E I O
And on the boat there was a bomb E I E I O
With a BANG BANG here
And a BANG BANG there
Lord Mountbatten's everywhere

 

[Aardvark154]

Lord Mountbatten had a boat E I E I O
And on the boat there was a bomb E I E I O
With a BANG BANG here
And a BANG BANG there
Lord Mountbatten's everywhere

Wonderful to know that you feel so happy about murder. :frown:


I might add that popular sentiment in Ireland (island wide) at the time was very much appalled horror.

 

[babemagnet]

Well, the documentary does end with Canadian survivors of the raid saying that they now feel some solace knowing that the raid had a purpose. O'Keefe did a pretty good job in my opinion,shedding light on the matter and the reason it was kept a secret. The idea was to land the Canadians on the beach under cover of darkness so's they could make their way up the steps and have a chance at surprising and attacking German positions. It fucked up when they landed in daylight. The "pinch" operation was complex and daring. Some other complex and daring operations worked out. As explained, the job of dealing with U boats without enigma interception was the nightmare scenario, so they had to give it a try.

 

[buttercup]

Lord Mountbatten had a boat E I E I O
And on the boat there was a bomb E I E I O
With a BANG BANG here
And a BANG BANG there
Lord Mountbatten's everywhere

When the introduced the expressions "sickeningly offensive" together with "boorish, crass, and crude", this was what they had in mind.

 

[fuji's mom]

Needless to say your opinion is your opinion, however, that really isn't a true statement.

in your opinion