Feds to Appeal Prostitution Ruling

dreamblade

Punster Extraordinaire
Feb 8, 2005
1,440
2
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in my pants, where there's a party
You guys realise that the SCC is the highest power in the land, right? If it upholds the Ontario ruling, then it will have to do so in accordance to our existing constitution and Charter of Rights. Harper will not have the authority to reverse that, save for using the Nonwithstanding Clause. If he does that, his career as PM is finished.

Report after report, survey after survey, numbers have shown Canadians are in favour of decriminalization. Yes, Harper is neo-con poster child, all Christian Morals and Corporate Interest, but he is a shrewd politician. Sure he'll fight this, but he cannot completely override the will of the People. See Bill C22 as well as his numerous attempts at copyright reform.
 

dreamblade

Punster Extraordinaire
Feb 8, 2005
1,440
2
36
in my pants, where there's a party
Ummmm, he could also draft new legislation making the entire shebang illegal, no?

The current rulings are based on the fact that women who WANT to work in this NOT-ILLEGAL industry are subject to provisions that make it dangerous for them to do so. All the government has to do is make the whole enterprise illegal, or penalize the Johns like the Swedish Model. No need for the Notwithstanding Clause.
True, but that would mean overturning the 1991 SCC decision...again, not feasable. A challenge would have to be issued, same as the one SPOC made would have to be enacted. It's a 5 year process which is not worth the Con's time. As for the Swedish model, once again, that would depend on the phrasing of the SCC's final decision. Sweden had determined that prostitution is legal but exploitative, hence the model. We already have laws in place against exploitation and trafficking, therefore that would not be the smart way to go.

Himel set an excellent precedent in her ruling. Focusing on the safety conditions of what is a legal trade in Canada, she has effectively barred prohibitionist meddling and muddling the issue.
 

luckyjackson

Active member
Aug 19, 2001
1,505
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You can't overturn a Supreme Court decision. And as 4tees pointed out, new legislation could simply outlaw prostitution. This is an issue that will always be decided by what is politically expedient at the moment. No one can guess how Harper is reading this, or whether it's even on his radar. If politicians wanted to the right thing, prostitution would have been made legal and regulated long ago.
 

Moviefan-2

Court Jester
Oct 17, 2011
10,489
171
63
No one can guess how Harper is reading this, or whether it's even on his radar.
True. Harper knows (perhaps better than Rob Ford) that many of his supporters aren't social conservatives.

Indeed, in an article that appeared online today, columnist Kelly McParland says the right-wing National Post appears to be Canada's "most pro-marijuana publication in the country."

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com...gs-hookers-and-vice-as-the-road-to-salvation/

Love him or hate him, most people agree Harper is pretty good at political strategy. If he thought this was a winning issue, he'd probably be making all kinds of noise about it (eg., the gun registry). His relative silence on the issue may be quite telling.
 

djk

Active member
Apr 8, 2002
5,953
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the hobby needs more capitalism
Interesting.

When the Ontario Court ruled in favour earlier, everyone was going on how it sucked, how the city was going to ruin it with running their own brothels, prices would skyrocket and so on.

Now that Harper is going to appeal the ruling, he's being controlling, overstepping the rule of law, etc.

Terb folk can be funny sometimes.
 
Questions from the South:

I read city councils are discussing zoning restrictions etc since in Ontario brothels are now legal until Supreme Court decides otherwise. I assume cities can require licensing (like Edmonton etc does for escorts) but zoning can't be unduly restrictive since no declared legal in Ontario by Ont Appeals.

As I understand it, rarely even with Bawdy convictions the penalty is usually a relatively low fine and rarely (if ever) jail imposed (assuming consenting adults). So what happens to everyone with any prior convictions. Are all prior convictions reversed ...back to the 1800's???? If the SCC agrees with other courts or refuses to hear?

On my Phoenix Private Lists (since 1989) getting lots of questions about moving to Canada of escorts especially since were are in the middle of a bust of 39 great folks for Tantra/"Sacred Sexuality" facing felonies and potential prison terms (as in prior Desert Divas case of almost 100).

I am trying to educate on work visa's required and probably not practical for many Phoenix escorts to try and work in Canada. A couple I know do have dual or Canadian citizenship.

Obviously I miss the great times in Canada without all the legal issues.

BTW as another point of potential interest on how you have it so good vs us Southern Yankees

Rose II Sting in Phoenix
Similar to Rose I last September - the hooker fair at Bethany Church

If similar to last year, mostly independents from websites etc. At least one Temple person and a few from the Private Companion List shared their experience last year.
Details per Phoenix PD
Last weekend
76 adults
3 under age "victims"
1 pimp
1 booked child prostitution and pandering
1 booked dangerous drugs.

Diversion program again offered by Catholic Charities to "save you". Help apply for ACCESS food stamp, last year they even had booths at the Church if needed clothes. Some of the escorts were quite well off and declined the help

Phoenix PD brags it saved $29,874.84 for those willing to do 6 months "therapy" with the Catholics instead of going to jail.

Working in partnership through a collaborative community effort, officers from across the Phoenix Police Department and a host of community partners (ASU, the City of Phoenix Prosecutors Office, Bethany Bible Church, Catholic Charities, EMPACT, Community Bridges and HealthCare for the Homeless StreetlightUSA, ALERT) fanned out across the city and actively sought those in greatest need of services and support. The team, under the strong leadership and guidance of Phoenix Police Department Lt. Jim Gallagher and Dr. Dominique Roe-Sepowitz PhD of the Arizona State University School of Social Work, conducted 2 twelve hour operations from a command post hosted by Pastor Brad Pellish and Bethany Bible Church and staffed by 116 volunteers.

If it was targeted at street hookers I would be more supportive, but last year from those that contacted me it was many private independents, outcalls to hotels etc Many declined the offer - given a purse with a Rose in it at the Church entrance.

Arizona Republic 4/26/12 Highlights
It was just before 6 a.m. on a recent weekday morning, and a broad coalition of police and social workers at the Bethany Bible Church activity center buzzed about the imminent arrival of prostitutes.

Dozens of women would move through the center over the next two days, hauled in by police who arrested the prostitution suspects in undercover operations.

Investigators have now come to view prostitutes as human-trafficking victims. While volunteers worked last week with prostitution suspects, undercover investigators patrolled the Internet looking for activity and patrol officers saturated the streets looking for more. Detectives collected as much information as possible from those arrested to try to develop larger criminal cases against the people responsible for putting the suspects to work.

Project Rose is the first step in that holistic approach to addressing prostitution, Gallagher said. It requires support from the highest levels of the agency. "It's unusual for me to go to my boss and say, 'I need 100 guys for 24 hours, and I'm not going to make any arrests,' " Gallagher said. "But because of the work we are doing and our department's commitment to impacting sex trafficking, I get those resources without question. ...

"I think the perspective of 'the world's oldest profession' and 'two consenting adults' is changing." Changing that perspective also requires prosecutors to change, said Kent McCarthy, a bureau chief in the Phoenix Prosecutor's Office. McCarthy estimated he has put hundreds of prostitutes behind bars during his career, but last week, he sat at a table trying to help prostitutes stay out of jail.

The city has another prostitution-diversion program that requires suspects to plead guilty, with a promise to drop the charges if the diversion is successfully completed. Project Rose offers the same diversion but puts women in touch with counselors and social-service providers within hours of their arrests. That avoids the weeks or months it can traditionally take.

If the candidates fail to complete either program they are charged as if diversion were never offered and face jail time ranging from 15 to 180 days, depending on how many times they've been caught.

The pre-conviction diversion saves taxpayers the costs of jail and court time -- Phoenix police estimate last week's program saved the department $30,000 in booking costs alone -- and closes that crucial window between a suspect's arrest and the opportunity for rehabilitation.

After prosecutors explained the diversion plan last week, suspects met with counselors from the Catholic Charities Dignity program, which relies on women who've left prostitution to counsel others on what it takes to break free of "the life."

Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarep...rostitution-human-approach.html#ixzz1t8zQR56Q
 

TeasePlease

Cockasian Brother
Aug 3, 2010
7,738
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Brothels are not legal...yet The appeal decision was stayed for 30 days pending decisions by either party to seek leave to appeal to the SCC, which the Feds have now indicated they will do.

The case at hand is a criminal matter. City councils have been exploring (for months if not years now) how to amend municipal codes to reflect new businesses. For example, how to license brothels and how enforcement might have to change.

Good to see you post, Dave. Great work on your site.
 

Rockslinger

Banned
Apr 24, 2005
32,776
0
0
If and when brothels become legal, an article in the April 26, 2012 edition of the Toronto Sun said that 15 GTA SC's would be ideal venues. One advantage of an SC is that you get to see and talk to the woman before you commit to spending your money which is a lot better than looking at some photoshopped pics on a website. (Hopefully, the SC won't turn off the lights like they do now during the 3rd song of a stage show.)
 

hesitant

New member
Sep 10, 2008
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The main force behind this and other challenges going on in Canada currently is a concerted move by Stephen Harper to use the conservative majority to change the course and identity of Canada. I quote Stephen Harper "when I am done you wont recognize Canada".

Those that say Canada had no choice but to challenge the verdict in the SCC are wrong. This is a willful act, just like the backbench private members bill to reintroduce the abortion debate...

I expect that SCC will uphold the ruling and that Harper will use that to attack the Charter of Rights and Freedoms which is something he absolutely despises since it is thwarting his ambitions to drag Canada back to the 1900s.

This is clearly more harper political gamesmanship and partisan politics.

I like how Alan Young, says that he will now also appeal the ruling on communication because that law has many constitutional flaws.
 

TeasePlease

Cockasian Brother
Aug 3, 2010
7,738
5
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Massage parlors (Bodyrubs and holistics) are far better suited for conversion than are strip clubs. The Star article was simply a nice piece of messaging done by Mr. Lambrinos (sp?). SCs clearly have a game plan in place.

The Feds didn't have to challenge the decision. But it did/will have to revisit prostitution laws as a result of the lower court rulings. Harper's gov't chose to appeal, meaning it wants to preserve the existing laws. Hence, one way to interpret the situation is that the Feds are looking to maintain a fairly strong control/restriction over the area. It's probably safe to say that it won't be a free for all or drastic decriminalization.
 

GPIDEAL

Prolific User
Jun 27, 2010
23,359
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The only reason that I can think of that the Conservatives (in the guise of the Federal Government) would go thorough what will be a a futile exercise (the Crown has now lost TWICE on this issue, once at the original trial and the second time before the Court of Appeal) is so that they can say during the next election that they are hard on crime. The Supreme Court may not even HEAR this case if the initial SCofC review finds that there is no error in law present. They will just refuse to hear it and then the law is gone.

Like the government and DOJ doesn't have enough REAL work to do!
Agreed. It's posturing.

They have to go to bat for their supporters and/or mainstream society. It's politics.
 

mcKaos

New member
Apr 8, 2012
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Agreed. It's posturing.

They have to go to bat for their supporters and/or mainstream society. It's politics.
I agree, the alternative is for the Federal Conservatives to re-write legislation and be seen by their base as allowing prostitution. You won't see a private members bill from the opposition for that reason and they don't want to give the Conservatives a campaign theme at some later date. The chances the Supreme Court take this case is somewhat min. in my opinion in that the argument was brought before a court in Ontario that actually was looking for a reason to squash this.
 

GPIDEAL

Prolific User
Jun 27, 2010
23,359
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I agree, the alternative is for the Federal Conservatives to re-write legislation and be seen by their base as allowing prostitution. You won't see a private members bill from the opposition for that reason and they don't want to give the Conservatives a campaign theme at some later date. The chances the Supreme Court take this case is somewhat min. in my opinion in that the argument was brought before a court in Ontario that actually was looking for a reason to squash this.
Another excellent point. Thank you.
 

LickingGravity

New member
Sep 9, 2010
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You do realize that Dalton McGuinty's Liberal government in Ontario is also appealing the decision?

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/sudbury/story/2012/04/25/ontario-federal-appeal-sex-trade.html

Can someone clear up the jurisdictonal confusion here. I understand why neither the Liberals provincially nor the Conservatives federally want to be seen as supporting this by not appealing but can some give a cogent explanation as to how a joint appeal works or are the Liberals just joining in unofficially with the Feds to appease their political base?
 

userz

Member
Nov 5, 2005
758
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Can someone clear up the jurisdictonal confusion here. I understand why neither the Liberals provincially nor the Conservatives federally want to be seen as supporting this by not appealing but can some give a cogent explanation as to how a joint appeal works or are the Liberals just joining in unofficially with the Feds to appease their political base?

Because the provinces are responsible for the administration of justice. The full name of the case is Attorney General of Canada and Attorney General of Ontario v. Terri Jean Bedford, Amy Lebovitch and Valerie Scott. Criminal law is a federal responsibility however the provinces are left to enforce the provisions of the Criminal Code.
 
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