Carbon Dioxide Death

[buttercup]

This is a question about the effects of carbon dioxide on the human body, to which I hope some here might have the answer.

Now, the film, Fear Is The Key, starring Barry Newman, Ben Kingsley, 70s era. Superb car chase in it, but the scene I want to mention is near the end. (If you haven't seen the movie, and you don't wanna spoil the ending, don't read on.)

The hero and the villains are in an underwater vehicle, searching for a crashed plane. The hero screws the air system, so they're using up the oxygen, and inhaling their own carbon dioxide. (The hero's family were on the plane, and he wants to die down here, with them. The villains caused the crash, and he's decided they will join him.) So, after a while, the hero and the villains are gasping for air, panting, etc.

My guess is that the producers got it wrong. Medically, I mean. If the air is becoming too rich in carbon dioxide, what happens is that the oxygen in the blood stream drops. Of course, carbon dioxide is not poisonous, as such. Too much CO2 kills you because it displaces oxygen in your blood stream.

So the thing that's killing you is not lack of air, as such, but displacement of the oxygen in the air you're breathing, by carbon dioxide.

So, my question is this: if you're in a place where the air contains a high enough percentage of carbon dioxide to kill you, just how do you die? Gasping for breath, putting all the physical effort you can muster into trying to suck in more air, as in the movie?

Or (what I would think is more likely), do you just quietly succumb to the lack of oxygen in the blood, so that the brain quietly switches off due to lack of oxygen? - and presumably not gasping for breath?

 

[wetnose]

http://www.ehow.com/how-does_4695252_carbon-dioxide-poisoning-kill-human_.html

 

[oldjones]

Lack of oxygen in the blood is not something your body will accept without a struggle. That'd be what the literature calls 'shortness of breath', and as it goes on without improving it becomes 'gasping for breath'. Much like when you run really hard and think you're gonna die because all that panting is still slower than your body wants to replenish its oxygen levels. Except that instance of oxygen depletion gets better.

Supposedly carbon monoxide fools the body into thinking there's all sorts of oxygen floating around, and so you just go peacefully to sleep, then die. But there have been few reports which would confirm that, from those who have taken the procedure that far.

 

[dshaw4096]

You would be gasping for breath, nothing peaceful about it.

 

[oldjones]

You would be gasping for breath, nothing peaceful about it.

If it's CO, you're talking about, could you please refer us to your authorities. The ones I've found talk about the unpleasantness—nausea, headaches etc—of mild CO poisoning, but nothing like your description. If you actually meant to Reply to Thread, or to reply to the OP about CO₂, the button you used misled you.

 

[punter]

I can't answer your question but I remember that movie, which I watched as a child and enjoyed. Barry Newman of 'Petrocelli' fame, I think. Thanks for stirring up an old, forgotten memory.

 

[dshaw4096]

If it's CO, you're talking about, could you please refer us to your authorities. The ones I've found talk about the unpleasantness—nausea, headaches etc—of mild CO poisoning, but nothing like your description. If you actually meant to Reply to Thread, or to reply to the OP about CO₂, the button you used misled you.

Put a plastic bag over your head and see how long you last, you are not going to be gasping painfully hard quickly and will rip it off before getting enough CO2 generated.

Perhaps if you had a tank of CO2 but thats not likely.

 

[glivet]

CO2 is routinely used in laboratories to sacrifice mice. When in contactbwith high concentrations of CO2, the mice run around the cage, opening their mouth to grasp as much air as possible. They then begin to shake, fall on the side and die. It is usually over in less than than 30 secondes. Mice are now anesthetised before being in contact with CO2 to reduce suffering. So the answer to your question would be that you would feel the lack of oxygen and try to grasp as much air as possible.

 

[Anynym]

Setting aside the CO vs CO2 for a moment, a simple lack of oxygen in the bloodstream will leave you disoriented and faint. You will pass out, then die.

Witness the effects observed of military training in an oxygen-deprived environment (usually in an airplane): people become unable to complete mental tasks which had caused them no difficulties under normal conditions.

Also, Greek fighter pilots and crash investigators were able to observe the effects of hypoxia (lack of oxygen) on the passengers and crew of Helios Flight 522, which crashed after the pressurization setting was incorrectly left on "manual". All were alive at the time of the crash, but were observed to have been passed out (e.g. slumped over the pilots controls).

 

[LazMan]

CO kills by bonding to the hemoglobin in your blood more readily then O2 does; and you become confused, pass out, and eventually die. There's no "gasping" because the body is confused by the CO, and "thinks" it's getting enough oxygen...

C02 kills by displacing the O2 in the atmosphere. You essentially sufficate. Short of breath, gasping, etc... Similar to drowning and "regular" suffication, it would be painful and terrifying.

 

[LKD]

CO kills by bonding to the hemoglobin in your blood more readily then O2 does; and you become confused, pass out, and eventually die. There's no "gasping" because the body is confused by the CO, and "thinks" it's getting enough oxygen...

C02 kills by displacing the O2 in the atmosphere. You essentially sufficate. Short of breath, gasping, etc... Similar to drowning and "regular" suffication, it would be painful and terrifying.

well said... CO sounds similar to the effects encountered in high altitudes like mount Everest. I've heard that people who aren't used to such high altitudes, where oxygen is thin, start losing their mental function after a while. Sure, they'd be gasping for air with tasks considered easy on lower altitudes but when they aren't active, their minds just start going blank, thinking starts to slow down and eventually they just pass out and plunge down the mountains.

 

[oldjones]

Put a plastic bag over your head and see how long you last, you are not going to be gasping painfully hard quickly and will rip it off before getting enough CO2 generated.

Perhaps if you had a tank of CO2 but thats not likely.

All well and good, but you seem to have missed that it was the difference between CO and CO₂ that I was describing. There's a reason they call CO the silent killer, and it isn't because that gas makes you thrash about and rip stuff. In fact it was Jack Kevorkian's gas of choice.

But as to a how handy the nearest tank CO₂ might be, it's my fire extinguisher of choice. Or you can obtain it slower using dry ice, and it is something to caution folks about when they use it for Hallowe'en effects: That 'smoke' is vapour clinging to CO₂ molecules, and since they're heavier than air, hiding in the smoke can dangerously decrease the amount of O₂ you're getting. Lotsa cautionary tales about movie effects gone wrong that way.

 

[buttercup]

All well and good, but you seem to have missed that it was the difference between CO and CO₂ that I was describing. There's a reason they call CO the silent killer, and it isn't because that gas makes you thrash about and rip stuff. In fact it was Jack Kevorkian's gas of choice.

But as to a how handy the nearest tank CO₂ might be, it's my fire extinguisher of choice. Or you can obtain it slower using dry ice, and it is something to caution folks about when they use it for Hallowe'en effects: That 'smoke' is vapour clinging to CO₂ molecules, and since they're heavier than air, hiding in the smoke can dangerously decrease the amount of O₂ you're getting. Lotsa cautionary tales about movie effects gone wrong that way.

So, in these lotsa cautionary tales, where the people were hiding in the CO2 cloud, were they gasping for breath, or did they quietly become unconscious?

Here's a quote from Wikipedia Asphyxia: "One form of asphyxiation is from entering a low oxygen atmosphere or an inert atmosphere, such as in a food oil tank that has a covering blanket of nitrogen or argon to shield the oil from atmospheric oxygen. Without sufficient oxygen to sustain life, people will act normally at first but will then abruptly feel dizzy and black out in a matter of seconds as the remaining oxygen in the blood stream is consumed." In other words, they carry on breathing normally - they don't gasp for breath, like the people did in Fear Is The Key. I guess I think CO2 would be more like nitrogen. CO2 is not poisonous, like CO.

I'm still guessing CO2 does not cause you to thrash about, gasping for breath.

Oldjones' cautionary tales, if corroborated, should settle the matter.

 

[LazMan]

So, in these lotsa cautionary tales, where the people were hiding in the CO2 cloud, were they gasping for breath, or did they quietly become unconscious?


I'm still guessing CO2 does not cause you to thrash about, gasping for breath.

Oldjones' cautionary tales, if corroborated, should settle the matter.

You can guess whatever you want...

When your body starts to become oxygen deficient, your respiration speeds up. It can take somewhere between 2-5 minutes for an average male to consume the usable oxygen in his blood volume, and black out. Before you black out, you struggle for breath and gasp. That's a LOT longer then it first sounds, BTW... As a firefighter/medic, we do drills on SCBA failure - even when you're prepared for it, and know it's coming, it's hard to keep panic from setting in. Drowning and suffication aren't a pleasant way to go, no matter what the movies show. It's not uncomon to rupture blood vessels (esp. in the eyes) from the increased pressure caused by trying to breath and get sufficent oxygen into the system.

Here's from a US Dept of Health and Safety...

----------------
WILL EXPOSURE TO CARBON DIOXIDE RESULT IN HARMFUL HEALTH EFFECTS?

Exposure to CO2 can produce a variety of health effects. These may include headaches, dizziness, restlessness, a tingling or pins or needles feeling, difficulty breathing, sweating, tiredness, <b>increased heart rate</b>, elevated blood pressure, coma, <b>asphyxia to convulsions</b> and even frostbite if exposed to dry ice.

The levels of CO2 in the air and potential health problems are:
•250 - 350 ppm – background (normal) outdoor air level
•350- 1,000 ppm - typical level found in occupied spaces with good air exchange.
•1,000 – 2,000 ppm - level associated with complaints of drowsiness and poor air.
•2,000 – 5,000 ppm – level associated with headaches, sleepiness, and stagnant, stale, stuffy air. Poor concentration, loss of attention, increased heart rate and slight nausea may also be present.
•>5,000 ppm – Exposure may lead to serious oxygen deprivation resulting in permanent brain damage, coma and even death.

 

[oldjones]

So, in these lotsa cautionary tales, where the people were hiding in the CO2 cloud, were they gasping for breath, or did they quietly become unconscious?

Here's a quote from Wikipedia Asphyxia: "One form of asphyxiation is from entering a low oxygen atmosphere or an inert atmosphere, such as in a food oil tank that has a covering blanket of nitrogen or argon to shield the oil from atmospheric oxygen. Without sufficient oxygen to sustain life, people will act normally at first but will then abruptly feel dizzy and black out in a matter of seconds as the remaining oxygen in the blood stream is consumed." In other words, they carry on breathing normally - they don't gasp for breath, like the people did in Fear Is The Key. I guess I think CO2 would be more like nitrogen. CO2 is not poisonous, like CO.

I'm still guessing CO2 does not cause you to thrash about, gasping for breath.

Oldjones' cautionary tales, if corroborated, should settle the matter.

What LazMan says above, is what I said in my first post here: Your body will fight for air. The gas itself does not 'make' anyone do anything. If you're happy, and believe everything's normal and peaceful when the oxygen depletes, it make take you a good deal longer to register than if you see an airtight vault door slam shut or someone puts a plastic bag over your head. CO₂ is colourless and odourless and when you tell someone to breath into a paper bag to calm themselves, it's the CO₂ that's providing the effect. But eventually your body will notice it's smothering; hopefully while consciousness remains. The fighting's up to you. I believe the difference with CO, is that your body's fooled into thinking CO is oxygen, because it binds with haemoglobin the same way and so you don't feel the 'I can't breathe ' effect at all.

Apart from someone supposedly using a fire-extinguisher in a garbage can on unwanted kittens, the cautionary tale that was most striking about CO₂ 'smoke' goes with a scene from an early Hollywood musical, with musicians hidden under a white floor so that only their arms and instruments showed. When the dry-ice fog machines were turned on, the musicians started to faint and pass out and had some difficulty attracting attention through the flooring. The scene stayed in the film, but without the fog. Quoting Wilkie, The techniques of special effects in television (London 1973) "Carbon dioxide is a heavy gas and will settle in low-lying areas. It is impossible to breath in areas of high CO₂ concentration" and "The possibility of asphyxiation must be anticipated where scenes include low-lyining [areas]…where performers have to lie down in the mist".

I'm sure you can appreciate that whether or not a dying victim reacts violently is of small interest to people concerned with keeping folks from dying, no matter how exciting it might be to a dramatist or her audience. But I did have occasion to warn more than one director that if he wanted to put his actor in a closed box full of 'smoke' that would billow out when the it was opened, we'd have to rig it so he wouldn't die inside.