Interesting question; How much will it cost us to 'police' ourselves, if C-30 passes?

Lord_Rambures

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http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/inside-politics-blog/2012/02/paying-for-our-own-surveillance.html


There's no way of knowing how much Bill C-30, colloquially known as the online snooping bill, will cost taxpayers, or boost monthly home internet and phone fees.

For the internet service providers, the toll it will take on their bottom line could be significant, because of the investment in equipment needed to allow real-time interceptions of online conversations or for preserving huge amounts of data.

"Even for my own small business, I think it would be tens of thousands of dollars. One of the things that jumped out at me (in the bill) is that the minster 'may' compensate us, not 'should' or 'will,' but 'may,'" says Tom Copeland, president of eagle.ca, a small internet provider with 3,500 customers.

Copeland says that ISPs won't be able to estimate the costs until the regulations for bill C-30 are written, possibly as long as a year away.

The costs could be huge, says Christopher Parsons, an internet writer and blogger, who's written about lawful access in the U.S. He says the U.S. Congress set aside $500 million dollars to compensate ISPs and mobile providers for equipping their networks with real-time surveillance capability. But was years ago, he says, and the upgrades aren't complete yet; the industry there is ballparking between $1.3 to $1.7 billion as the true cost.
 

Aardvark154

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First thing is that I believe the bill will be significantly modified before it reappears in the House.

Second thing, whether it was the Bill as it was introduced or a Bill that requires Warrants there still is going to be a cost to some ISPs to comply with the law.
 

MattRoxx

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As we've seen with the G20 summit spending, F-35 purchase price, and new prison construction plans, the Harper government does not care how much their hateful and paranoid ideology will cost citizens.
 

OddSox

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For the internet service providers, the toll it will take on their bottom line could be significant, because of the investment in equipment needed to allow real-time interceptions of online conversations or for preserving huge amounts of data.
More misinformation. The bill does not say they have to track your conversations or anything of that nature - just the exact records they already keep - your name, address etc. and the IP address associated with that.
 

Lord_Rambures

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More misinformation. The bill does not say they have to track your conversations or anything of that nature - just the exact records they already keep - your name, address etc. and the IP address associated with that.
Did you read the entire article? The one area where the government has promised to pick up the tab is the ISPs' costs to comply with each request for subscriber data or an actual intercept.


Its not the Government who is going to be (MP's in the House) footing the bill, its us, the taxpayer! What funding would you like to see cut further? Or, would you prefer a tax increase?
 

Lord_Rambures

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First thing is that I believe the bill will be significantly modified before it reappears in the House.

Second thing, whether it was the Bill as it was introduced or a Bill that requires Warrants there still is going to be a cost to some ISPs to comply with the law.


Absolutely.
 

Lord_Rambures

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Latest update with regards to costs;

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2012/02/22/pol-lawful-access-costs.html

It's going to cost at least $80 million to implement the government's lawful access bill to force internet service providers to collect customer information in case police need it for an investigation, CBC News has learned.

C-30, a bill to update Canadian law when it comes to crimes committed online, will cost $20 million a year for the first four years and $6.7 million a year after that, Public Safety Canada told the CBC's Hannah Thibedeau on Wednesday.

A spokesperson for Public Safety Minister Vic Toews wouldn't provide any more information about the costs. It's not clear if those are the only costs associated with the legislation.

The bill, also known as the online surveillance bill, would force internet service providers to install equipment so they can collect information on customers in case police obtain a judicial warrant to retrieve it.

It also updates Canadian law to force ISPs to turn over specific customer information to police without needing a warrant and eliminates the legal barriers to providing other information requested by police.

It includes some details about what costs for which the government can compensate ISPs.
 

Aardvark154

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Its not the Government who is going to be (MP's in the House) footing the bill, its us, the taxpayer!
Needless to say unless the Government has it's own Gold Mine or something of the sort.

However, there are some things worth paying for: shutting down a ring trafficing minors, or what the plans of Magilla Gorillia the infamous guerrilla and terrorist might be.
 

Lord_Rambures

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Needless to say unless the Government has it's own Gold Mine or something of the sort.

However, there are some things worth paying for: shutting down a ring trafficing minors, or what the plans of Magilla Gorillia the infamous guerrilla and terrorist might be.
The police have said they need additional funding to continue the war on online predators/child pornographers. They already have developed the tools they need in house.

http://www.simcoe.com/news/crime/article/1291674--60-arrested-in-massive-child-porn-sweep

The bad guys are still out there. After announcing the largest child pornography sweep in Ontario history, police say thousands more people are still suspected.

More disturbing are the countless young victims who continue to be abused.

At a news conference Thursday, police said 213 charges were laid against 60 people. Yet the Ontario Provincial Police and partner agencies said they’ve only started to skim the surface of child exploitation.

Those 60 individuals are alleged to be the worst of the worst. Police said limited resources mean investigators can’t possibly catch them all.

...Police used tools and software developed in-house to track 8,940 unique Internet protocol addresses where porn is suspected to have been downloaded in the past three months, said OPP Det.-Staff Sgt. Frank Goldschmidt.

At the Vaughan news conference, those IP addresses were displayed as an overwhelming number of red dots on a map of Ontario.
Using that information, police surfed through incriminating material to execute warrants or request the name and location of suspects registered at the IP addresses from Internet service providers.

Goldschmidt said keeping on top of new ways to store and transmit child pornography is a constant challenge. “So we’re developing some of these tools to help us out and identify these people.”
 
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Anynym

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Let's be clear about a few things here.

First, the costs of being able to comply with this Bill are going to be borne by the customers of the ISPs (and to a lesser and more theoretical extent, their shareholders). Taxpayers won't be on the hook for the investment.

Second, these costs are comparable to the costs already borne by the phone companies, which provide the equivalent capability today for law enforcement. And there have been many and long discussions in the US about internet-based phone companies providing the same capability to law enforcement: google CALEA.

Third, because the Internet enables very short "conversations", the need to keep volumes of data grows. But, the cost of data storage has dropped through the floor over the past several years: I used to pay about $1/Gig, not too long ago. Now, I'd be upset to pay $100/T. At retail.
 

Lord_Rambures

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Let's be clear about a few things here.

First, the costs of being able to comply with this Bill are going to be borne by the customers of the ISPs (and to a lesser and more theoretical extent, their shareholders). Taxpayers won't be on the hook for the investment.
No, they will be borne by the taxpayer whether they subscribe to an internet service or not.

Second, these costs are comparable to the costs already borne by the phone companies, which provide the equivalent capability today for law enforcement. And there have been many and long discussions in the US about internet-based phone companies providing the same capability to law enforcement: google CALEA.
Not according to people in the know.

Third, because the Internet enables very short "conversations", the need to keep volumes of data grows. But, the cost of data storage has dropped through the floor over the past several years: I used to pay about $1/Gig, not too long ago. Now, I'd be upset to pay $100/T. At retail.
I believe you need to do some more research. Pay particular attention to what Internet Providers, and Bernard Lord are saying.



You say "lets be clear here" so lets.

Public Service Canada has stated that it will cost approximately $80mil over the first 4 years. And, approximately $7mil per year after that. Initially, Internet Providers will have costs associated with equipment/storage and the hiring of extra staff. Then, every 4 - 5 years they will have to upgrade their equipment as technology changes.

Bernard Lord, CEO/President of Canadian Wireless Telecommunications Assn, has stated that the Government/Taxpayers will have to pay for this, as this is not a market place decision it is a Government decision.
 

Aardvark154

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Somewhat puzzled as to what your point is Lord Rambures. Is it merely that this isn't going to be free, or is it that because it will cost X amount rather than Y amount certain crimes shouldn't be pursued?
 

Lord_Rambures

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Somewhat puzzled as to what your point is Lord Rambures. Is it merely that this isn't going to be free, or is it that because it will cost X amount rather than Y amount certain crimes shouldn't be pursued?
My point is, the taxpayers should not have to pay so the Government can spy on them.

The police have already stated they need additional funding to fight online child pornography. They do not need to have access to everyones' internet history.
 

Lord_Rambures

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So this should be paid for by customers of ISPs?
I edited my post, apparently after you quoted me.

I do not support Bill C-30. I do not believe it should pass in any form. The only purpose it would serve is to monitor and store every persons online history in its entirety. I would estimate that 99.99% of Canadians are law abiding citizens - what would be the purpose of logging/saving everyones activity?
 

MattRoxx

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When the Harper government said it wanted smaller government I didn't realize he wanted a gov't that was small enough to fit inside my computer.

I edited my post, apparently after you quoted me.

I do not support Bill C-30. I do not believe it should pass in any form. The only purpose it would serve is to monitor and store every persons online history in its entirety. I would estimate that 99.99% of Canadians are law abiding citizens - what would be the purpose of logging/saving everyones activity?
Y'know, it should be conservatives complaining the loudest about this intrusive government measure.
 

Aardvark154

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Hopefully I am correct, but I strongly believe that the Bill as it comes out of Conference will be substantially different than it was at first reading.
 

oldjones

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Millions and millions to register ordinary users of ordinary tools of everyday life, not because we users are evil or bad, nor our tools, but to control the crimes of others—the Baad Users.

Seems to me we heard all this from another government before. Something to do with Long Things; help me out here. Isn't this the government that said such intrusions into ordinary people's live and rights should not be countenanced?
 

dcbogey

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Or should the $80 million be spent on enforcing existing laws and dealing with the 8,900 other identified child porn suspects that the local police had not enough resources to pursue?

Aardvark, this Bill is NOT about catching child pornographers. It is about government attempting to remove judicial oversight of a fundamental right guaranteed in our Charter. Of which rights shall not be infringed except in accordance with the principles of fundamental justice.
As I said in a different thread about this, there's no way it will ever happen - it makes WAY too much sense for any government to even consider. :cool:
 
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