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Obama's tax plan: 'Fair share' vs. 'class warfare'?

train

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Jul 29, 2002
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Taking post #25 as factual and there is no reason not to do so.

So the wealthy are being asked to pay more taxe simply because they are the only ones that have the ability to do so. Ok fine. Why couldn't the people who aren't wealthy contibute something as well? Taxes in kind would suit me. Can't pay another $30 k in taxes. Fine I can, here it is even though I'm now giving 40% of my taxable income. But how about you toss in some community service so the extra tax money doesn't get pissed away on yet more civil servants. $30 k is about 2.5 weeks of income for me so why don't people like cobster and oldjones and Woody contribute 2 weeks of community sevice directed towards reducing expenditures on whatever they can do. Hand out parking tickets, teach kindergarten, whatever. Surely you can do something useful that would reduce expenses on some level.

I'm contibuting 2.5 weeks of work to pay for things, I realize you don't have the cash but do you think that being freeloaders entitles you to greater rights somehow or are you claiming you are totally worthless and can't contribute anything meaningful ?

There you've made me sound like every bit the old farts that you guys are :biggrin1:
 

onthebottom

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That is not my point at all. Others were suggesting that "the well off" were paying perhaps more than there fair share based on IRS numbers. I was pointing out that even the IRS admit that they are catching a lower portion of income that is paid to the wealthy than the average or poor. If you want to look at numbers you need to do it fairly.

What are suggesting, that tax evasion is a virture?
I think you're making a leap saying that the wealthy are those not reporting income (perhaps it's just fuji not reporting his retirement income in Canada... LOL), Wealthy people know you can go to jail for not reporting income, I'd guess (and that's all it is) that much of that 30% is business income from cash businesses.... can you think of any of those... are those wealthy individuals?

OTB
 

wigglee

Well-known member
Oct 13, 2010
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Do lower taxes on the rich increase job creation? The right wing theorists(apologists) say yes but the stats for the current time frame say no way.
So please , save us that old false argument.
 

WoodPeckr

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False arguments are all self-centered selfish greedy have to deflect away from paying their fair share! When you feel you are 'entitled' as the RICH feel they are, this happens to many....:rolleyes:
 

onthebottom

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More facts:

Top 0.1 Percent Pays More Income Tax than Bottom 80 Percent
9:27 AM, SEP 21, 2011 • BY JEFFREY H. ANDERSONSingle PagePrintLarger TextSmaller TextAlerts

In his recently released deficit plan, President Obama lays out the “Buffett Rule” (named, of course, for Warren Buffett, the famous investor and supporter of Obama). The rule, as Obama defines it, is “that people making more than $1 million a year should not pay a smaller share of their income in taxes than middle-class families pay.”


Obama’s clear inference, of course, is that this otherwise happens routinely; that the rich are shirking their citizenly duties while the middle class pays. Is this inference true? Or is it simply a political fiction, a straw man from which Obama hopes to make hay in 2012?

The Tax Policy Center (TPC), a center-left joint-creation of the Brookings Institution and Urban Institute, publishes federal tax statistics by income group (see, here, here, here, and here). The essential funding source (at least from individuals) for most of the general functions of government — defense, roads, national parks, federal law enforcement, etc. — is the income tax. It is almost entirely through the income tax that individual citizens contribute financially to the day-to-day functions of their government.

In 2010, according to the TPC, Americans in the lowest quintile of income-earners — the bottom 20 percent — paid minus-3.8 percent of the total federal income tax burden. In other words, they got more back, in income tax credits and the like, than they paid in. Similarly, those in the second quintile paid minus-4.3 percent of the total federal income tax burden — so they, too, weren’t paying into the income tax till but rather were taking out.

Those in the middle quintile — pretty much the center of the middle class (this quintile had an average income of $44,000) — paid 3.9 percent of the total federal income tax burden (about $1 of every $25 dollars in income taxes paid nationwide). And those in the fourth quintile — whose income ranged from $58,000 to $102,000 — paid 15.1 percent of the total federal income tax burden.

So, all told, the 80 percent of Americans whose income placed them in one of these first four quintiles of income-earners combined to pay 10.9 percent of the total federal income tax burden. Put otherwise, this 80 percent of the citizenry paid about $1 out of every $9 that was paid in federal income taxes nationwide.

Meanwhile, Americans in the highest 0.1 percent of all income-earners — these are the very rich, with incomes of at least $1.974 million — paid 16.4 percent of the total federal tax burden. Essentially, one out of every $6 paid in federal income tax was paid by this 0.1 percent of the citizenry.

In other words, the top 0.1 percent paid more toward the workings of government than the bottom 80 percent did. That’s despite the fact that the bottom 80 percent collectively made more than six times as much money as the top 0.1 percent did.

On average, a given member of the top 0.1 percent paid $1.1 million in annual federal income tax — $1,147,616, to be more exact. That’s more than 1,000 times what the average person in the middle quintile paid ($1,017). Yes, the very rich made a lot more money — but not anywhere near 1,000 times as much. In fact, only 12 percent of this gap in income-tax payments is attributable to the gap in income between the two groups. The rest resulted from the very rich paying a much higher percentage of their income — more than 8 times as high — in income tax.

Now, I don’t know how much Warren Buffett pays his secretary, or how much either of them really pays in income taxes. But when 0.1 percent of the population is collectively paying more in income taxes than 80 percent of the population is collectively paying, it’s clear that there’s not a whole lot of need for the “Buffett Rule.”

Again, the stats I’ve quoted — all of which are from the TPC — are for income tax. What if we were to include all federal taxes — including payroll taxes, which people pay and then (to a greater or lesser degree) get back in direct payments for themselves in the form of Social Security or Medicare? What if we were also to include employers’ share of these payroll taxes, crediting employees as if they had made these payments themselves (like the TPC does)?

Factoring in payroll taxes in this manner, those in the top 0.1 percent no longer paid more in taxes than the bottom 80 percent did last year (although they did pay more than the bottom 40 percent did — four times as much, in fact). But they still paid much higher rates. The average total federal tax rate for those in the top 0.1 percent was 30.7 percent. (That’s before factoring in any state or local taxes.) In comparison, the average total federal tax rate for those in the middle quintile was 12.8 percent. The average rate for those in the fourth quintile was 16.8 percent. And the average rate for those between the 95th and 99th percentile (those making between $204,000 and $509,000) was 23.4 percent. So even if Buffett’s secretary makes a cool half-million annually, he or she still likely pays a much lower total tax rate than the average person in the top 0.1 percent.

Certain prominent Obama supporters (Buffett, General Electric) do seem to be particularly good at avoiding paying taxes, but that doesn’t mean they’re the norm. The facts are clear: Our very richest citizens collectively pay for more of the day-to-day operations of our government than 80 percent of our citizens collectively do. The rich would already seem to be paying — as Obama likes to say — “their fair share.”

http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs...more-income-tax-bottom-80-percent_594000.html
 

WoodPeckr

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Buffet says YOU use fuzzy numbers bottie!...:rolleyes:

Don't let Buffet's FACTS take you away from your delusions....
 

rld

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Oct 12, 2010
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I think you're making a leap saying that the wealthy are those not reporting income (perhaps it's just fuji not reporting his retirement income in Canada... LOL), Wealthy people know you can go to jail for not reporting income, I'd guess (and that's all it is) that much of that 30% is business income from cash businesses.... can you think of any of those... are those wealthy individuals?

OTB
The IRS seems to think so, and the other part of the category is investment income, which is very much an income category for the well off.
 

danmand

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Nov 28, 2003
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More facts:

Top 0.1 Percent Pays More Income Tax than Bottom 80 Percent
9:27 AM, SEP 21, 2011 • BY JEFFREY H. ANDERSONSingle PagePrintLarger TextSmaller TextAlerts

In his recently released deficit plan, President Obama lays out the “Buffett Rule” (named, of course, for Warren Buffett, the famous investor and supporter of Obama). The rule, as Obama defines it, is “that people making more than $1 million a year should not pay a smaller share of their income in taxes than middle-class families pay.”


Obama’s clear inference, of course, is that this otherwise happens routinely; that the rich are shirking their citizenly duties while the middle class pays. Is this inference true? Or is it simply a political fiction, a straw man from which Obama hopes to make hay in 2012?

The Tax Policy Center (TPC), a center-left joint-creation of the Brookings Institution and Urban Institute, publishes federal tax statistics by income group (see, here, here, here, and here). The essential funding source (at least from individuals) for most of the general functions of government — defense, roads, national parks, federal law enforcement, etc. — is the income tax. It is almost entirely through the income tax that individual citizens contribute financially to the day-to-day functions of their government.

In 2010, according to the TPC, Americans in the lowest quintile of income-earners — the bottom 20 percent — paid minus-3.8 percent of the total federal income tax burden. In other words, they got more back, in income tax credits and the like, than they paid in. Similarly, those in the second quintile paid minus-4.3 percent of the total federal income tax burden — so they, too, weren’t paying into the income tax till but rather were taking out.

Those in the middle quintile — pretty much the center of the middle class (this quintile had an average income of $44,000) — paid 3.9 percent of the total federal income tax burden (about $1 of every $25 dollars in income taxes paid nationwide). And those in the fourth quintile — whose income ranged from $58,000 to $102,000 — paid 15.1 percent of the total federal income tax burden.

So, all told, the 80 percent of Americans whose income placed them in one of these first four quintiles of income-earners combined to pay 10.9 percent of the total federal income tax burden. Put otherwise, this 80 percent of the citizenry paid about $1 out of every $9 that was paid in federal income taxes nationwide.

Meanwhile, Americans in the highest 0.1 percent of all income-earners — these are the very rich, with incomes of at least $1.974 million — paid 16.4 percent of the total federal tax burden. Essentially, one out of every $6 paid in federal income tax was paid by this 0.1 percent of the citizenry.

In other words, the top 0.1 percent paid more toward the workings of government than the bottom 80 percent did. That’s despite the fact that the bottom 80 percent collectively made more than six times as much money as the top 0.1 percent did.

On average, a given member of the top 0.1 percent paid $1.1 million in annual federal income tax — $1,147,616, to be more exact. That’s more than 1,000 times what the average person in the middle quintile paid ($1,017). Yes, the very rich made a lot more money — but not anywhere near 1,000 times as much. In fact, only 12 percent of this gap in income-tax payments is attributable to the gap in income between the two groups. The rest resulted from the very rich paying a much higher percentage of their income — more than 8 times as high — in income tax.

Now, I don’t know how much Warren Buffett pays his secretary, or how much either of them really pays in income taxes. But when 0.1 percent of the population is collectively paying more in income taxes than 80 percent of the population is collectively paying, it’s clear that there’s not a whole lot of need for the “Buffett Rule.”

Again, the stats I’ve quoted — all of which are from the TPC — are for income tax. What if we were to include all federal taxes — including payroll taxes, which people pay and then (to a greater or lesser degree) get back in direct payments for themselves in the form of Social Security or Medicare? What if we were also to include employers’ share of these payroll taxes, crediting employees as if they had made these payments themselves (like the TPC does)?

Factoring in payroll taxes in this manner, those in the top 0.1 percent no longer paid more in taxes than the bottom 80 percent did last year (although they did pay more than the bottom 40 percent did — four times as much, in fact). But they still paid much higher rates. The average total federal tax rate for those in the top 0.1 percent was 30.7 percent. (That’s before factoring in any state or local taxes.) In comparison, the average total federal tax rate for those in the middle quintile was 12.8 percent. The average rate for those in the fourth quintile was 16.8 percent. And the average rate for those between the 95th and 99th percentile (those making between $204,000 and $509,000) was 23.4 percent. So even if Buffett’s secretary makes a cool half-million annually, he or she still likely pays a much lower total tax rate than the average person in the top 0.1 percent.

Certain prominent Obama supporters (Buffett, General Electric) do seem to be particularly good at avoiding paying taxes, but that doesn’t mean they’re the norm. The facts are clear: Our very richest citizens collectively pay for more of the day-to-day operations of our government than 80 percent of our citizens collectively do. The rich would already seem to be paying — as Obama likes to say — “their fair share.”

http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs...more-income-tax-bottom-80-percent_594000.html
Still arguing against a progressive income tax, eh?
 

rld

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In other words, the top 0.1 percent paid more toward the workings of government than the bottom 80 percent did. That’s despite the fact that the bottom 80 percent collectively made more than six times as much money as the top 0.1 percent did.
Take a moment and think about what this part of the article means in terms of the shift in wealth distribution. Just think about it.
 

onthebottom

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Still arguing against a progressive income tax, eh?
Just showing how progressive it is and how cynical and disingenuous the POTUS is....

OTB
 

onthebottom

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Take a moment and think about what this part of the article means in terms of the shift in wealth distribution. Just think about it.
The US is a great place to get rich.

OTB
 

danmand

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Nov 28, 2003
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Just showing how progressive it is and how cynical and disingenuous the POTUS is....

OTB
No, OTB, I think you rather are showing how reactionary YOU are.
 

Veronica27

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Dec 13, 2005
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The rich keep paying less and less of their income to taxes. Folks making $250K or more in the 40's and 50's used to pay 80%+ in taxes, in the 60's and 70's around 70% in taxes, now less than half of that (around 33%).

The problem folks is that the U.S. and the West are in serious trouble. Before the end of the decade China will have a higher GNP than the U.S. (maybe sooner). If the U.S doesn't get their act together our children will be forced to learn Mandarin and refer to prices in RMBs.

1 in 7 folks in the U.S. are on food stamps. Think about that for a second. Today's capitalism is beginning to fail America. The sky is not falling, but the clouds are getting darker quick.
 

groggy

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Mar 21, 2011
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I'd say the sky has fallen, when you add in other stats.
Like this one, the US is 25th in internet access, right behind Romania.
Its the end of the empire and its turning into a third world economy.
 

papasmerf

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as long as people like woody pay ZERO in tax there will be a problem

after all woody makes 100% profit..............He pays no taxes, pays for no food or housing.

He should pay his fair share
 

Cobster

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The rich keep paying less and less of their income to taxes. Folks making $250K or more in the 40's and 50's used to pay 80%+ in taxes, in the 60's and 70's around 70% in taxes, now less than half of that (around 33%).

The problem folks is that the U.S. and the West are in serious trouble. Before the end of the decade China will have a higher GNP than the U.S. (maybe sooner). If the U.S doesn't get their act together our children will be forced to learn Mandarin and refer to prices in RMBs.

1 in 7 folks in the U.S. are on food stamps. Think about that for a second. Today's capitalism is beginning to fail America. The sky is not falling, but the clouds are getting darker quick.

Nicely summary in a nutshell.
 

Cobster

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I'd say the sky has fallen, when you add in other stats.
Like this one, the US is 25th in internet access, right behind Romania.
Its the end of the empire and its turning into a third world economy.

Holy shit, I thought their education ranking was bad, but internetz access?
 
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