Confidence in toronto police crashes in wake of G20

[fuji]

http://mobile.thestar.com/mobile/NEWS/article/1014891

Since the g20 the toronto police have taken a real beating in public trust and support. Considering that public trust is the most effective weapon police have--the ability to solicit cooperation of witnesses and other members of the public--this is a disaster.

 

[Damondean]

http://mobile.thestar.com/mobile/NEWS/article/1014891

Since the g20 the toronto police have taken a real beating in public trust and support. Considering that public trust is the most effective weapon police have--the ability to solicit cooperation of witnesses and other members of the public--this is a disaster.

In interviews, Chief Blair says they did not have enoughtime to train. How much training did it take to remove their name tags?

I thas become a rogue force. That big corruption and nightclub shakedown trial is still perking away somewhere.

It should go the way of the Parachuitre Regiment and be disbanded. Bit I am not sure that bringing the RCMP or OPP would be any better. I guess you have to be a bit warped to become a cop.

 

[WoodPeckr]

I guess you have to be a bit warped to become a cop.

Knew a kid in Grammar school who was a bully and liked to order smaller kids around telling them what they could and couldn't do. Even as a kid he was a real blowhard. He ended up being a cop....

 

[blackrock13]

In interviews, Chief Blair says they did not have enoughtime to train. How much training did it take to remove their name tags?

I thas become a rogue force. That big corruption and nightclub shakedown trial is still perking away somewhere.

It should go the way of the Parachuitre Regiment and be disbanded. Bit I am not sure that bringing the RCMP or OPP would be any better. I guess you have to be a bit warped to become a cop.

As usual FUJI left out some important facts and twisted others. For those of you that choose to read the report. The confidence in the TPS doesn't change that drastically until one focuses on the G20.

"A majority of citizens, 56 per cent, say they still have “a lot” or “complete” confidence in police, which Mukerji said is “still a fairly high level.”

“But the second you bring up the concept of the G20, you can see that it really has stained the credibility of the TPS.”

I remember the last 'confidence' vote for the TPS wasn't much different than 56%, Nottyboi could dig up that report if you wish. So it really has 'crashed that much.

Yes, the G20 was a circle jerk and I have said as much on a couple of occasions, but I suspect in a year or so the respect/trust /faith/confidence will be back to pre G20 levels, when memories get lazy and saner heads grasp reality.

You'll have to refresh my memory about that big night club shakedown. Mind you,even another member who claim rampant corruption couldn't recall it either, when he was asked to recall the many examples to back his claim.

You really shouldn't have brought the Paras into the thread, but hey. It just shows us how little you know.

 

[hunter001]

In interviews, Chief Blair says they did not have enoughtime to train.

They had six months. At best a lame excuse.:frusty:

 

[blackrock13]

They had six months. At best a lame excuse.:frusty:

Considering that most hosts have 2 years to plans, but Harpo shortened that because his ego changed the venue to TO from up north.

 

[danmand]

It is fair to blame the police force, because their job is to uphold the law, but the larger blame has to go to the Harper government who gave the orders.

 

[fuji]

As usual FUJI left out some important facts and twisted others.

As usual you are not smart enough to participate in the debate. Please go back to your usual cheer leading.

The ONLY thing I wrote was that confidence in the police service has crashed. It has. For example, "a majority of Torontonians polled said they are not confident in the SIU’s ability to hold officers accountable", while only 43% of city residents think Blair should stay on as chief. Yes the loss of confidence does appear to relate specifically to the G20, but it's bled over into concerns about the SIU, and concerns about the chief.

Will it recover? Perhaps. But it has crashed at the moment, and that is a disaster.

 

[blackrock13]

While I am not a Fuji-fan, I do have to agree that the article very strongly indicates that support for TPS is in question, or in doubt.

One thing to note about survey research - they'll typically ask a question like "Do you have complete, a lot, a little or no confidence in the Toronto Police Force?" If you look at the wording of the quote from the guy at Reid, he said "a lot" or "complete" confidence in the police. In other words, he netted the two boxes together to get the 56%. What the article does not report is the proportion of individuals who just said "complete" and the amount who just said "a lot". As such, it would be interesting to know: 1) the individual proportions for each box; and 2) the comparable results from previous studies to see if there has been a shift between these two boxes.

I am generally a supporter of law enforcement and prefer to give them broader powers and more authority than most - however, given their absolutely disgusting display at the G20, I can now see the reason why there is such oversight of the police. The G20 showed just how this group of individuals can easily go down the road of abuse of power - so yes, my confidence is shaken.

I think you'll find that most polls that have covered this topic are worded in similar five part fashions, perhaps on purpose to retain continuity, but you do raise a good point between the yes and mostly position, but it certianly doesn't amount to a crash as FUJI would like you to believe from the title.

 

[Deviant]

For me, it was the behavior AFTER the G20 that pissed me off. Instead of Sorry, we went too far, it was a the wall of blue against the people, even by the `should be fired because of his response` police chief. Maybe I was naive in my complete support of the police, I never believed the wall of blue was this powerful, I fear for the future.

 

[GPIDEAL]

I was watching CP24 about the G20 anniversary protest. I really think the police are getting too bad a rap here.

I'm sorry but when hooligans illegally penetrate security barricades, burn police cars, smash storefronts, things will get out of hand, tempers will flair, and fuck ups will occur.

The profile of arrestees were not your typical law-abiding average citizen who for the most part, avoided that area of downtown. I haven't read the papers on the TP abuses - I'm sure there were some, but the police didn't instigate the violence, although their response in certain situations may have been beyond their authority and that needs to be addressed.

I don't think the TP's training included every contingency that arose during the G20 riots. It was unprecedented for Toronto. One has to look at the context of the whole situation.

The media is making this look like the Kent State Massacre which is unfair.

 

[CapitalGuy]

Please provide your sources of proof that public trust is the most effective weapon police have and that witnesses have stopped coming forward. On second thought, don't bother, as we know you can't. Toronto will be fine, no matter how desperately you want to paint this as an apocalyptic disaster. Its not, its just the media flogging a dead horse so their sales numbers stay up.

 

[Deviant]

My thoughts exactly.

I think that one's boss should support the people that work for them, so I can see why the chief would want to support the front-line police, BUT I think the chief should have been more contrite, and should have pointed fingers at senior police or managers who implemented the whole debacle.

For me, it wasn't just his defense of the front line cops, it was Top Cops public announcement that the video received by the Police services board investing the police actions, was doctored. After his public statement, the public sent many more videos showing that the original tape was not doctored and Blair had to apologize.

This guy has control of all the forensic investigative services/tools in this city, and he announces in a press conference that the evidence is doctored. We have to believe him because the job we have given him is to investigate the facts. His intentional cover-up attempt should be considered grievous and he should be charged just as a pilot or ship captain is charged when they fail in their duty and responsibility to their charges.

 

[blackrock13]

For me, it wasn't just his defense of the front line cops, it was Top Cops public announcement that the video received by the Police services board investing the police actions, was doctored. After his public statement, the public sent many more videos showing that the original tape was not doctored and Blair had to apologize.

This guy has control of all the forensic investigative services/tools in this city, and he announces in a press conference that the evidence is doctored. We have to believe him because the job we have given him is to investigate the facts. His intentional cover-up attempt should be considered grievous and he should be charged just as a pilot or ship captain is charged when they fail in their duty and responsibility to their charges.

I believe the term he used was 'edited' based on the fact that there was missing time gap explained later by the owner as he stopped recording then restarted. The additional video supported the explanation After this was explained, I don't believe the 'doctoring' was mentioned again. I could be wrong.

 

[nottyboi]

As usual FUJI left out some important facts and twisted others. For those of you that choose to read the report. The confidence in the TPS doesn't change that drastically until one focuses on the G20.

"A majority of citizens, 56 per cent, say they still have “a lot” or “complete” confidence in police, which Mukerji said is “still a fairly high level.”

“But the second you bring up the concept of the G20, you can see that it really has stained the credibility of the TPS.”

I remember the last 'confidence' vote for the TPS wasn't much different than 56%, Nottyboi could dig up that report if you wish. So it really has 'crashed that much.

Yes, the G20 was a circle jerk and I have said as much on a couple of occasions, but I suspect in a year or so the respect/trust /faith/confidence will be back to pre G20 levels, when memories get lazy and saner heads grasp reality.

You'll have to refresh my memory about that big night club shakedown. Mind you,even another member who claim rampant corruption couldn't recall it either, when he was asked to recall the many examples to back his claim.

You really shouldn't have brought the Paras into the thread, but hey. It just shows us how little you know.

So you think 44% not having confidence in the police is ok? What is typical for cities? Blair is really quite shameful. Talk about zero credibility. Sure the police can regain the public confidence.. but to do so they need to hold those accountable who were responsible for abuses... which they refuse to do.

 

[blackrock13]

Please provide your sources of proof that public trust is the most effective weapon police have and that witnesses have stopped coming forward. On second thought, don't bother, as we know you can't. Toronto will be fine, no matter how desperately you want to paint this as an apocalyptic disaster. Its not, its just the media flogging a dead horse so their sales numbers stay up.

Well it could be shown by the problems that police have in ethnic and closed communities. Some based on lack of trust because of old country ideas and some based trusting and cooperating with the police can be hazardous to your health. We don't have to name thse groups ans most inteeligent people already know who they are. That makes operating with/in these communities much harder.

Maybe that answers the question.

 

[blackrock13]

So you think 44% not having confidence in the police is ok? What is typical for cities? Blair is really quite shameful. Talk about zero credibility. Sure the police can regain the public confidence.. but to do so they need to hold those accountable who were responsible for abuses... which they refuse to do.

Time will tell. Some officers are being charged and will probably have their day in court, plea bargains aside. There were some on TERB who thought that wouldn't happen.

44% isn't great, but as somebody posted earlier most of those same will call the police when something happens. The G20 will fade in memories just like the OCAP protests/riots of past years. Remember, less than 25 people showed up at the various G20 forums in recent weeks. It might nor even take too long to reach that yawn factor.

 

[fuji]

I'm sorry but when hooligans illegally penetrate security barricades, burn police cars, smash storefronts, things will get out of hand, tempers will flair, and fuck ups will occur.

Trouble is that most of the abuses of power occurred in places the black bloc WEREN'T, like at the designated protest location at Queen's Park. While the black bloc were allowed to smash and loot Queen Street, the police were a half kilometer away beating up peaceful protesters. Moreover the worst abuses occurred afterwards--where otherwise honest and good officers feigned ignorance and shielded those few among them who were responsible for crimes. In addition the police brass showed themselves to be weak in the face of egregious breaches of trust--like giving the officers who removed their badges the lightest possible slap on the wrist, instead of sacking them.

I guarantee you accountability among the police would soar if cases like the badge removal, or being caught lying to protect another officer from charges, resulted in immediate termination. That's weakness from the top.

The profile of arrestees were not your typical law-abiding average citizen who for the most part, avoided that area of downtown.

That's incorrect. The 1100 people who were arrested were overwhelmingly law-abiding average citizens who were doing nothing more than exercising their fundamental, democratic right to peaceful protest.

 

[fuji]

Please provide your sources of proof that public trust is the most effective weapon police have and that witnesses have stopped coming forward.

What are you questioning here? That the support of the public is crucial to policing? That Toronto police have had a hard time getting witnesses to come forward in several key cases?

What rock are you living under?

 

[GPIDEAL]

Trouble is that most of the abuses of power occurred in places the black bloc WEREN'T, like at the designated protest location at Queen's Park. While the black bloc were allowed to smash and loot Queen Street, the police were a half kilometer away beating up peaceful protesters. Moreover the worst abuses occurred afterwards--where otherwise honest and good officers feigned ignorance and shielded those few among them who were responsible for crimes. In addition the police brass showed themselves to be weak in the face of egregious breaches of trust--like giving the officers who removed their badges the lightest possible slap on the wrist, instead of sacking them.

I guarantee you accountability among the police would soar if cases like the badge removal, or being caught lying to protect another officer from charges, resulted in immediate termination. That's weakness from the top.



That's incorrect. The 1100 people who were arrested were overwhelmingly law-abiding average citizens who were doing nothing more than exercising their fundamental, democratic right to peaceful protest.

I can't believe for one second that 'peaceful protesters' were beaten for no reason.

If they were peaceful, then they would mind the barricades and not even clash with police.