Road tolls to pay for subways

[avxl1003]

Tell you what, if the government stops taxing me for the construction and maintenance of our roadways and other infrastructure related to vehicular transportation, I'd gladly "start" paying a small amount every time I crank my engine.

If you want "free" subway transport, start lobbying for an embedded municipal tax.

You've missed the point entirely..

The point is not to have a free subway, but subway expansion.

The road tolls would go to repair the roads themselves. Therefore the money that is currently being used to repair the roads, that are used primarily by those people who live and pay taxes outside Toronto, could go towards expanding the subway line.

 

[FatOne]

it's close enough that it doesn't matter which you use. yes i know the difference and if you read back i was using both almost every time i said it because i was just talking in generalization.

Apparently you don't know the difference, because if you did, you would not say it is close enough that it doesn't matter.

 

[fuji]

It still boils down to this crazy sense of entitlement some drivers have, where they believe that they should get costly roads for free but subways and other more economical choices should be fee based.

They should ALL be fee based.

 

[simon482]

Apparently you don't know the difference, because if you did, you would not say it is close enough that it doesn't matter.

apperently you are just being a stickler for words and missing the part where i was talking in generalization about how raising taxes/tolls is not a good idea in my opinion and that i was not focusing solely on tolls.

 

[james t kirk]

It still boils down to this crazy sense of entitlement some drivers have, where they believe that they should get costly roads for free but subways and other more economical choices should be fee based.

They should ALL be fee based.

This actually makes sense.

 

[oldjones]

It still boils down to this crazy sense of entitlement some drivers have, where they believe that they should get costly roads for free but subways and other more economical choices should be fee based.

They should ALL be fee based.

The principle is one I'd endorse, but we should always be mindful of what's good for the community we're responsible for when implementing such things. One might welll make the case, as we have for public sanitation and watersupply and for basic education and untolled sidewalks and roads that the community benefits by making such commonly used and beneficial things available 'free' thru taxes. And we should be mindful that a pure user-pays-all-costs approach could often be collossaly difficult and inefficient to administer and frighteningly destructive of that community. One observable cost of the user-pay for education thru Bake Sales approach that the tax cutters bring us more of every year is that the schools educating poor kids do poorer and poorer. When we've known for years that giving young kids good, never mind superior educations is one of the surest ways to keep them from crime.

"I'd love to go across and ask if my neighbour needs some help, since all three kids are sick, but I don't have any room on my SmartSideWalkToll card and The Wife's got the RoadTollTransponder in the car" And do we pay bper use of policing according to the crimes that don't happen, or for the policing failure that allows them?

 

[fuji]

I think public education should be fee based too, with discounted rates for those who are in need. The YMCA has the right fee model: Their gym memberships aren't cheap, but they discount it to whatever-you-can-afford for the needy. Schools should be like that too.

There is an important difference between making public education free for everyone, and making public education affordable for everyone.

 

[oldjones]

However, in our wisdom we have made it required for everyone, as we have required sewer and water hookups and, and access from homes and properties to roadways. So the 'voluntary' user pay model becomes a tax requirement because we want healthy people, able to get around and relate semi-intelligently with each other populating our complex communities.

The point is to start our thinking with what we want, not with how little we're willing to pay for something undefined. On the present topic, thinking about being charged for using roads that are now 'free' is quite a different matter from considering how much you might happily pay to avoid traffic jams and run downtown and back at 90kph.

But either way without roads we won't have a city; do we ant one that runs eficiently, or one that struggles and fails constantly?

 

[avxl1003]

apperently you are just being a stickler for words and missing the part where i was talking in generalization about how raising taxes/tolls is not a good idea in my opinion and that i was not focusing solely on tolls.

The problem is you're lumping them together. Raising taxes is not a good idea. Charging a toll to get on a highway IS a good idea. Just because I am arguing that tolls are a good idea does NOT mean that I am for raising taxes.

 

[avxl1003]

It still boils down to this crazy sense of entitlement some drivers have, where they believe that they should get costly roads for free but subways and other more economical choices should be fee based.

They should ALL be fee based.

I disagree. They should not all be toll based. The roads that should be toll based are simply the ones that are primarily used by people living outside Toronto, and paid for by people living inside Toronto (the Gardiner and DVP).

These are problem highways and they are problems because of the people living outside Toronto. Lucky for the people living outside Toronto, it's not their problem. Well it's about time we make it their problem by having them share in some (if not all) of the costs.

Just because it's a good idea to put a toll on one highway (or two) it doesn't mean that we should resort to fee based everything.

 

[simon482]

The problem is you're lumping them together. Raising taxes is not a good idea. Charging a toll to get on a highway IS a good idea. Just because I am arguing that tolls are a good idea does NOT mean that I am for raising taxes.

i have been talking in generalizations the whole time and quite a few times over now i am have said raising is not the solution but paying attention to what is collected and proper spending would be the better solution. you call it what you like but there are better solutions out there then adding to the finacial burden of people that are struggling as it is.

 

[avxl1003]

i have been talking in generalizations the whole time and quite a few times over now i am have said raising is not the solution but paying attention to what is collected and proper spending would be the better solution. you call it what you like but there are better solutions out there then adding to the finacial burden of people that are struggling as it is.

Unfortunately the mindless masses that voted Ford in, are slowly finding out that the solution is not simply to find efficiencies in spending.

As inefficient as city hall can be, it wasn't so inefficient that 4 billion dollars (the cost for his subway line) can be found lickity split. Sure cutting councilors expense accounts can save some money, but not nearly enough. So since it's now clear that the money wasn't secretly hiding somewhere, the only option left is to either cut services (which he campaigned vehemently that he wouldn't do), or get more money somehow.

In the case of tolls, he'd be getting money from people that currently aren't really contributing much to the city much at all, but benefit from the city anyway.

This is all irrelevant because Mayor McCheese has already said he's with you Simon. He's made it clear that he thinks toll roads are ridiculous.

But to me it's a no brainer. He'd probably get the environmental groups off his back a bit because the toll would reduce gridlock on the Gardiner and DVP. And more importantly, he'd get some of the money he needs while breaking no promises to his constituents ("No new taxes for Torontonians").

As far as people that are struggling are concerned, if they can't afford a toll for a highway, they probably shouldn't be driving a car in the first place (as driving is expensive).

 

[good to go]

It is simple actually, you put an id tag on the license plate sticker. For people who live outside the GTA they are charged a fee everytime they enter into the GTA and leave the GTA. That way people who live inside the GTA are not charged for what they already pay for.

 

[simon482]

Unfortunately the mindless masses that voted Ford in, are slowly finding out that the solution is not simply to find efficiencies in spending.

As inefficient as city hall can be, it wasn't so inefficient that 4 billion dollars (the cost for his subway line) can be found lickity split. Sure cutting councilors expense accounts can save some money, but not nearly enough. So since it's now clear that the money wasn't secretly hiding somewhere, the only option left is to either cut services (which he campaigned vehemently that he wouldn't do), or get more money somehow.

In the case of tolls, he'd be getting money from people that currently aren't really contributing much to the city much at all, but benefit from the city anyway.

This is all irrelevant because Mayor McCheese has already said he's with you Simon. He's made it clear that he thinks toll roads are ridiculous.

But to me it's a no brainer. He'd probably get the environmental groups off his back a bit because the toll would reduce gridlock on the Gardiner and DVP. And more importantly, he'd get some of the money he needs while breaking no promises to his constituents ("No new taxes for Torontonians").

As far as people that are struggling are concerned, if they can't afford a toll for a highway, they probably shouldn't be driving a car in the first place (as driving is expensive).

i am not talking about toronto only. get the entire gov't to spend like normal and no more waste. get them to take accountability for wht they do and you would be surprised how much money is left over at the end of the year for road repairs all across the country and extra's here and there, better schooling, upgraded hospitals and all sorts of shit. instead though gov't officials get bigger houses, bigger paychecks, more expenses and all sorts of stupid perks for essentially doing little or nothing.

there are a lot of people that are struggling and the public transit is not really to good for people that live in brampton and work in scarb or even downtown. sure i am not to familiar with it cuz i have never used it but i used to drive taxi out in georgetown and i was told it is about 2 hours to commute each way. some people are budgeted right down to the penny and another toll would fuck it up. yeah they should probably look for something a little closer to home or take the movie package off their cable but for some people it is just that tight.

to clear the record as well, i would pay and do pay tolls on every highway i go on because in my business it is a tax write off at the end of the year so i don't much care anyway.

 

[spraggamuffin]

Its maybe another 90 years before we get back our 407 toll highway built with tax payers money and currently policed by tax payed police.

Mike and Ernie laughed all the way to the bank with kickbacks from this 'secretive" deal for sure.

Politicians are not in office based on merit but by by hookery and crookery.

To depend on them to look after the needs of the tax paying population rather than their own self interest is merely a dream.

Unfortunately King's highways cannot be tolled and tolls on all highways would be quite regressive especially on an already highly taxed population.

Result of course would be money that ends up in coffers to be spent elsewhere other than where it was generated by our much esteemed politicians.

Funding and using that funding wisely is definitely one challenge. Planning and planning wisely is another.

Both challenges are compounded when you look at how dunce our leaders are, thoroughly lacking in education,ideas,vision,knowledge and insight.

More funding is definitely needed but we need better qualified minds to spend it efficiently rather than the current crop of parasitical imps we call politicians.

 

[spraggamuffin]

As far as tolls to fund public transit and road repairs it's a great idea.

As suggested, the congestion is caused mostly by 905ers in and out of Toronto.

Putting tolls on the much used highways like the DVP and Gardiner that can be legally tolled are good ideas.

Most advanced subway systems worldwide have a link to the airport. Our current system isn't that far from the airport and a link is doable.

Imagine being able to get from Scarborough Town Centre to the airport in 40 minutes for much less than a taxi. Even with fare zones and pay by distance it would still be much cheaper.

Highway 401 is ideally placed cutting right through the middle of Toronto.

Above ground covered subway lines using the areas on both sides of the highway at least from Scarborough Town Centre to the Airport is a start.

Funding could be from tolls on DVP,Gardiner and 2 additional dedicated Toll lanes on the 401 that stretches between the airport and the DVP. The rest of lanes on the 401 would remain free for all users.

You can only get on the toll lanes from where the 409 meets the 401 and only get off at the end ie the DVP.

All tolls from this stretch would be dedicated to the upkeep and running of the toll lanes in the short term and towards public transit in the long term.

Because it is a public good, there are unions, and fares need to be kept way below what it would be profitable at under private enterprise, public transit will never be self sufficient and will always need funding outside of the fare box.

If tolls help to lessen this amount it's worth a try. Tolls to support public transit should however be kept on a small and manageable scale and though the actual funds go towards a public good, it's management could even be outsourced to a more efficient private source rather than politicians and their cronies looking after their own self interest.

In tandem with tolls and increased availability of public transit, multilevel parking facilities close to subway stations for 905ers to park is a great idea. These may or may not be part of the network that funds public transit.

The airport, Yorkdale mall and Scarborough Town center are businesses nicely poised close to the 401.

Why not build multi level parking close to these centers on available or government owned land to help facilitate more public transit use?