Buddy got charged in a spot check.

[rld]

The cost of the defense on an over 80 can vary greatly depending if you want to go basic or go whole hog. You can spend anywhere from 3k to 20k, and it gets especially expensive if your lawyer retains a good toxicologist like Kupferschmidt or that other chap whose name escapes me that used to work at the center for forensic science. In figuring out whether or not it is worth your money, you have to factor in impact on ones job and auto insurance rates.

As usual, do not take your legal advice from Fuji.

This is a criminal charge, not a HTA offense. I don't think you are prudent using a paralegal to deal with it. If there is going to be a fight get a real lawyer.

The previous poster is correct, RIDE is not unconstitutional.

Now, blowing .90 is pretty marginal and is open to attack on a number of technical and factual grounds. Most of the guys I know who do a fair bit of impaired/over .80 work will tell you that at .100 or less they have a very good chance of successfully defending the charge. It is certainly worth at least consulting a lawyer who does a fair bit of that kind of work.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Like person above mentions, get someone who has a lot of experience with DUI cases because there are some technicalities that a person can get the charge tossed on.
I knew someone who was over .80; but, the second test that is done at the station has to be done within 20 minutes or something like that of the first breathalizer test at the roadside; but, this second test was done 23 minutes or so after the first roadside breathalizer test so he got his case tossed on that technicality.

 

[Bif_Butkiss]

Nope. I don't buy that. I think your friend was proven guilty in court and the consequences are what he deserves for driving drunk.

Time to WAKE UP and smell the coffee..... It's day light in the swamp!!!!!

 

[jaygood]

The license suspension if convicted is now 6 months not 12 - not including the automatic 3 month suspensions. Readingd were low so could get it reduced to careless driving. It is more difficult to fight now that they have gotten rid of evidence to the contrary defence. Now you have to prove that the machine was in error unless he has some other error in their procedure of arrest, timing between when he was charged and when he did the blow tests at the station etc.

He should contact Fred Fedorsen if he wants a really good lawyer. He can at least take in his disclosure and see if its worth fighting and the costs involved.

 

[gcostanza]

Was your buddy's name pmahovalich ?

 

[Keebler Elf]

I had a relative go through this so I can shed some second-hand experience.

An "Over 80" charge is different than an Impaired Driving charge but the consequences are exactly the same: 1-year license suspension upon conviction, have to take a course, breathalyzer in your car, big fine, even bigger insurance hit, etc. The penalties are all laid out on the Ministry of Transportation website. Plus, it's a criminal offense that will stay on your record until you eventually get it pardoned. That means good luck traveling to the States and good luck getting a job that involves a background check.

The silver lining is that he wasn't hit with both an Over 80 and Impaired Charge. Under the law, if you breathe over 80 mg you can be convicted. That doesn't mean you were impaired, it just means you were Over 80. That's how fucked up our laws have become (thanks MADD!!!). For insurance or criminal checks, Over 80 is no different than Impaired. The penalties are all the same.

Your buddy needs to get a good lawyer, which will cost him around $10K. You want one who specializes in DUI, not someone who does traffic offenses including DUI (and definitely not a paralegal or one of those ex-coppers). The specialists are the guys who really know the DUI laws and are up to date on the legal jurisprudence. You want one who can argue constitutional law.

One downside he will face is that the laws changed a couple years back to make it much tougher to get breathalyzer samples tossed out. Now they are assumed to be correct and you have to prove they weren't; something that is next to impossible to do since you don't have access to the machine and all the information the police have.

Tell your buddy not to fuck around with this. Get a good lawyer, pay top dollar, and hope for the best. He should also sit down today and write out in as much detail as he can remember everything that happened from the time he started drinking to when he was released from jail. His memory will fade and if he has timely notes it will work in his favour since all the cop is going to have are scribbles in his noteback made hours after the fact. It helps that your buddy wasn't charged with both Over 80 and Impaired (one less charge to beat) but it's still an uphill battle. PM me and I can refer a good lawyer to you.

There are very technical arguments that may be made depending on the circumstances of your case. If he was drinking with friends who can testify to how many drinks he had, that helps. If he has the bill from the bar, he should keep it. If not, he should go and try and get it before the bar wipes it from their records.

It will take at least a year to get to court. It's not as common as people think for charges to get tossed due to undue delay. There's legal criteria that must be met. In short, don't count on it. My relative was close to the limit but even then it's not a slam dunk. You have to show you were prejudiced by the delay. Also, make sure your lawyer asks for the police evidence, including any video recordings (a good lawyer will know to do this).

 

[criticalwon]

Simple answer.............don't drink and drive

Simple response to your simple response....Its too late now, unless you are Marty Mcfly and Doc has a Deloreon waiting for you.

 

[fmahovalich]

My Buddy who continues to be innocent until proven guilty..thanks those in here who have shed a wee bit of light.

To the petulant angry non contributing thread hijackers.....be on your merry way!!

I will keep you all appriased with pertinant details as they become available!!

 

[Mod99]

To the petulant angry non contributing thread hijackers.....be on your merry way!!

15. All threads are public. You can't control who may post in them. Please do not try.

Can't handle all responses? Don't make a public thread.

 

[Bif_Butkiss]

My Buddy who continues to be innocent until proven guilty

My point exactly....

Unfortunately there are those here who consider a person GUILTY of whatever crime at the time they become the accused. This sort of reasoning can only be described as Mob Mentality. This legal right of "Innocent until proven guilty" as guaranteed us by the Charter of Rights and Freedoms unfortunately, is becoming a thing of the past. Where as an accused person PRIOR to any guilt being proven in a court of law can be arbitrarily imprisoned. The loss of job, financial resources, home, family, etc. can and more often than not will soon follow.
If the accused is lucky enough to get out on bail then their life and freedom will face severe restrictions until the date that such guilt is proven in court.

Innocent UNTIL proven guilty????..... Not in this country!!!!

BEFORE your friend chooses a lawyer to help represent him in this matter do a Google on the lawyer's name. Most lawyer's will have a rating list somewhere on the net and you will be able to read feedback from past clients as well. GOOD LUCK!

 

[Social Gent]

I knew someone who was over .80; but, the second test that is done at the station has to be done within 20 minutes or something like that of the first breathalizer test at the roadside; but, this second test was done 23 minutes or so after the first roadside breathalizer test so he got his case tossed on that technicality.

Actually, KT, that too is incorrect.
It was within 2 hours of the accident or notification, etc (i.e. placing under arrest), but this past summer/spring that was bumped up to 3 hours.
Which is why you spend as much time as you possibly can on the phone with Duty Counsel before blowing. Never EVER decline to speak to Duty Counsel when you are arrested for ANYTHING!

 

[Social Gent]

I had a relative go through this so I can shed some second-hand experience.

We have another expert in the house, because a 'relative' of his went through this...

He should also sit down today and write out in as much detail as he can remember everything that happened from the time he started drinking to when he was released from jail. His memory will fade and if he has timely notes it will work in his favour since all the cop is going to have are scribbles in his noteback made hours after the fact. It helps that your buddy wasn't charged with both Over 80 and Impaired (one less charge to beat) but it's still an uphill battle. PM me and I can refer a good lawyer to you.

Crown: Officer, did you make your notes in ink?
Officer: Yes.
Crown: Did you make them at the time or as soon as possible to the events occuring?
Officer: Yes.
Crown: Did you make them yourself, without collaboration with any of your other officers or superiors?
Officer: Correct, I made them independantly.
Crown: Do you require them to refresh your memory from time to time?
Officer: Yes.
Crown: Your Honour, I'd ask that the Officer's notes be qualified for the purpose of his/her using them to refresh his memory in regards to this matter.
Justice: Mr./Ms. Defence counsel, were these same notes disclosed to you at an earlier date?
Defence: Yes.
Justice: Do you have any issue with my qualification of these notes?
Defence: Unfortunately, I do not.
Justice: Then the officer's notes are qualified for the purpose of him refreshing his memory.

Your buddy, writing notes NOW, days let alone hours AFTER the event, do not qualify. He can read them over before he goes into the court room, but he's not getting up in the stand with them, that's for sure.

If he has the bill from the bar, he should keep it. If not, he should go and try and get it before the bar wipes it from their records.

Ahh, the Arm-chair lawyer strikes again;

Friend: Hi, I've been charged with Care and Control over .80. Can I have a copy of my bar bill from the other night?
Bar: Oh, so what you're saying, is you want definitive evidence that you were here, drinking, and we allowed you to get in a motor vehicle... So, you want us to provide confirmation, so that the A.G.C.O. can suspend our license or fine us? Yeah, get lost pal.


I could go on and on, as Keebler's Cable-television view of the justice system is so skewed in regards to trying to help you out Frank. Really, just too easy.

Yeah, a hijack here... but another hijack to say those of you who are "lawyers" from the best seat on the couch, please, don't give advice without at least researching it.
Matters like this truely do affect someone's life - and not the basic "effect" of not seeing an SP that isn't "all that".

 

[fmahovalich]

Someone..who was rather petulant..posted about TERB being public....

YES IT IS...ANYONE CAN POST ANYTHING ANYWHERE.

My only hope was that in THIS THREAD..that the posters would have been on topic and added fruitful information to the question/post as originally asked.

However..hiding behind righteousness and indignation as well as the laptop, they spew meaningless condescending information that does nothing to enhance or contribute to the thread, but rather sheds light on their own rather low self esteem and feelings of indescribable meaningless self worth.

Feel free to speak freely; it is a free country...say whatever it is you want to say....but out of sheer manners...please start your own thread..perhaps one tltled, rather appropriately "Petulant thread Hijacking thread"...and then post to your hearts content...



NOW...back on topic..

Advice has been good....keep it coming...re: potential outcomes for OVER 80 charges on a still Innocent Buddy!!!!

Thank You

Frankie

 

[afterhours]

Actually, KT, that too is incorrect.
It was within 2 hours of the accident or notification, etc (i.e. placing under arrest), but this past summer/spring that was bumped up to 3 hours.
Which is why you spend as much time as you possibly can on the phone with Duty Counsel before blowing. Never EVER decline to speak to Duty Counsel when you are arrested for ANYTHING!

LOL are you a law student? don't make an ass of yourself

what you are referring to is a presumption of identity (=the lowest of readings deemed to be equal to the BAC at the time of the offence) that applies if the first test is taken within 2 hours from the time of driving (i.e. when the offence allegedly was committed, certainly not placing under arrest or notification, whatever the fuck does that mean) and allows the Crown to not call a toxicologist to relay the readings taken at the station back to the time of the offence.
It was not bumped up to 3 hours (although something else was, but it's irrelevant here).

If the first test takes place outside of two hours, the Crown must introduce toxicologist report and possibly call him as a witness. That increases the chances of the Crown fucking their case up.

 

[Meesh]

Someone..who was rather petulant..posted about TERB being public....
YES IT IS...ANYONE CAN POST ANYTHING ANYWHERE.
My only hope was that in THIS THREAD..that the posters would have been on topic and added fruitful information to the question/post as originally asked.
However..hiding behind righteousness and indignation as well as the laptop, they spew meaningless condescending information that does nothing to enhance or contribute to the thread, but rather sheds light on their own rather low self esteem and feelings of indescribable meaningless self worth.
Feel free to speak freely; it is a free country...say whatever it is you want to say....but out of sheer manners...please start your own thread..perhaps one tltled, rather appropriately "Petulant thread Hijacking thread"...and then post to your hearts content...

NOW...back on topic..
Advice has been good....keep it coming...re: potential outcomes for OVER 80 charges on a still Innocent Buddy!!!!
Thank You
Frankie

So, if I'm understanding you correctly, if they only post what you want to hear, all is good. But if it's not, then they're ill-mannered, condescending, petulant and worthless.

Sure sounds like you're trying to control what's posted and where.

Must be my low self-esteem, eh?

 

[Questor]

Someone..who was rather petulant..posted about TERB being public....

YES IT IS...ANYONE CAN POST ANYTHING ANYWHERE.

My only hope was that in THIS THREAD..that the posters would have been on topic and added fruitful information to the question/post as originally asked.

However..hiding behind righteousness and indignation as well as the laptop, they spew meaningless condescending information that does nothing to enhance or contribute to the thread, but rather sheds light on their own rather low self esteem and feelings of indescribable meaningless self worth.

Feel free to speak freely; it is a free country...say whatever it is you want to say....but out of sheer manners...please start your own thread..perhaps one tltled, rather appropriately "Petulant thread Hijacking thread"...and then post to your hearts content...



NOW...back on topic..

Advice has been good....keep it coming...re: potential outcomes for OVER 80 charges on a still Innocent Buddy!!!!

Thank You

Frankie

Hey, buddy, try to stay on topic.

 

[The Fruity Hare]

Someone..who was rather petulant..posted about TERB being public....

YES IT IS...ANYONE CAN POST ANYTHING ANYWHERE.

My only hope was that in THIS THREAD..that the posters would have been on topic and added fruitful information to the question/post as originally asked.

However..hiding behind righteousness and indignation as well as the laptop, they spew meaningless condescending information that does nothing to enhance or contribute to the thread, but rather sheds light on their own rather low self esteem and feelings of indescribable meaningless self worth.

Feel free to speak freely; it is a free country...say whatever it is you want to say....but out of sheer manners...please start your own thread..perhaps one tltled, rather appropriately "Petulant thread Hijacking thread"...and then post to your hearts content...



NOW...back on topic..

Advice has been good....keep it coming...re: potential outcomes for OVER 80 charges on a still Innocent Buddy!!!!

Thank You

Frankie

The problem around here is that if I did start a thread with that title, it would probably be hijacked and have a bunch of people discussing a drink - driving arrest!

 

[Malibook]

Advice has been good....keep it coming...re: potential outcomes for OVER 80 charges on a still Innocent Buddy!!!!

Potential outcomes are:

1) Plead guilty and start the minimum 1 year suspension including the initial 90 days.
Pay fine, interlock ignition device, remedial programs, and increased insurance.

2) Same as 1 and apply for Reduced Suspension program which can make the suspension as little as 3-6 months.
http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/safety/impaired/conduct.shtml
http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/safety/impaired/Practical-Qs-and-As_Reduced-Suspension.pdf

3) Fight it and lose and get a 1 year suspension in addition to the initial 90 days.
Pay lawyer, fine, interlock ignition device, remedial programs, and increased insurance.

4) Fight it and get a plea deal for careless driving.
Pay lawyer, fine and demerit points but pretty much a great victory.

5) Fight it and get the charge dropped or win the case.
Pay lawyer.

4 and 5 could also possibly affect your insurance rates.

 

[Social Gent]

what you are referring to is a presumption of identity (=the lowest of readings deemed to be equal to the BAC at the time of the offence) that applies if the first test is taken within 2 hours from the time of driving (i.e. when the offence allegedly was committed, certainly not placing under arrest or notification, whatever the fuck does that mean) and allows the Crown to not call a toxicologist to relay the readings taken at the station back to the time of the offence.
It was not bumped up to 3 hours (although something else was, but it's irrelevant here).

If the first test takes place outside of two hours, the Crown must introduce toxicologist report and possibly call him as a witness. That increases the chances of the Crown fucking their case up.

No law student, but we are all students of the law - always learning, no matter how many hours have been spent in the courtroom, regardless of how many reasons, rulings, and judgments there have been.

Placing under arrest/notification: "I am placing you under arrest as I have reasonable grounds to believe that you are impaired."
Don't see how that was so confusing, but if I have to get OPC manuals and case-law for you... Well, actually, I don't care enough to do that.
But yes, you are correct. Error in my expression; it is from the time of the presumed incident. But at a RIDE stop, that is the incident. However, once again, your expression of it is correct.

But the time-frame was raised to 3 hours. This differential of the extra hour is one of the notable differences that would have been beneficial 2 or 3 years ago, in the recently heard R v. Rawn criminal case - 7 x Op/Imp Bd. Hrm., 7 x Op/Dng Bd. Hrm. - The issue being in regards to the impaired, that it would have been over two hours before they could get a breath tech to her at the hospital, and without any injuries there was no ability to take a blood sample.

 

[Social Gent]

Potential outcomes are:

1) Plead guilty and start the minimum 1 year suspension including the initial 90 days.
Pay fine, interlock ignition device, remedial programs, and increased insurance.

2) Same as 1 and apply for Reduced Suspension program which can make the suspension as little as 3-6 months.
http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/safety/impaired/conduct.shtml
http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/safety/impaired/Practical-Qs-and-As_Reduced-Suspension.pdf

3) Fight it and lose and get a 1 year suspension in addition to the initial 90 days.
Pay lawyer, fine, interlock ignition device, remedial programs, and increased insurance.

4) Fight it and get a plea deal for careless driving.
Pay lawyer, fine and demerit points but pretty much a great victory.

5) Fight it and get the charge dropped or win the case.
Pay lawyer.

4 and 5 could also possibly affect your insurance rates.

You left out the victim fine surcharge for the first 3, though mostly applicable to the third.
Elevated fine for #3 as well, instead of the minimum $1000. #3 would also come with less time to pay, as well as forms of community service to go with it.

3 through 5 include, though many constantly forget it, hours of your own time wasted making court apearances and hearing dates, rather than the basic one or two you would require for options 1 through 2 (which can be accomplished without even spending any money!)