Why Religion Fails

[sidebanger]

It is a response to the claim made by religion-haters like Canada-man, that religion is the cause of a large amount of death and violence.

Those of us who have some respect for religion are simply pointing out that in the modern era, that is simply not true.

I don't suggest that athiesm or even secular humanism is inherently violent, rather that religion is no longer the cause for the majority of the world's war and violence, and probably has not been for at least a couple of centuries.

While I agree it is not the cause for the majority of war and violence, it certainly is the cause of a large amount of death and violence.

 

[rld]

While I agree it is not the cause for the majority of war and violence, it certainly is the cause of a large amount of death and violence.

If I was to suggest capitalism, or the competition for scarce resources was not creating much more conflict and death than religion, would you suggest we abolish these things? Or not believe in them?

 

[rld]

Religion is Good for Childern...in a scientific study yet...

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,268081,00.html

 

[rld]

Another really interesting peice in the Canadian Journal of Psychiatry:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_7486/is_20090501/ai_n35556498/

Seems to find religion overall helpful for providing good mental health.

Also notes as follows:

Despite spectacular advances in technology and science, 90% of the world's population is involved today in some form of religious or spiritual practice.1 Nonreligious people make up less than 0.1% of the populations in many MiddleEastern and African countries. Only 8 of 238 countries have populations where more than 25% say they are not religious, and those are countries where the state has placed limitations on religious freedom. Atheism is actually rare around the world. More than 30 countries report no atheists (0%) and in only 12 of 238 countries do atheists make up 5% or more of the population. In Canada, 12.5% of the population are nonreligious and 1 .9% atheist.

as well as this interesting tibit:

Why is religious coping so common among patients with medical and psychiatric illness? Religious beliefs provide a sense of meaning and purpose during difficult life circumstances that assist with psychological integration; they usually promote a positive world view that is optimistic and hopeful; they provide role models in sacred writings that facilitate acceptance of suffering; they give people a sense of indirect control over circumstances, reducing me need for personal control; and they offer a community of support, both human and divine, to help reduce isolation and loneliness. Unlike many other coping resources, religion is available to anyone at any time, regardless of financial, social, physical, or mental circumstances.

 

[canada-man]

Religion is Good for Childern...in a scientific study yet...

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,268081,00.html

An obviously flawed study using children indoctrinated into Christianity and not allowed to question these beliefs and told they are going to burn in hell if they don't believe.

 

[canada-man]

Another really interesting peice in the Canadian Journal of Psychiatry:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_7486/is_20090501/ai_n35556498/

Seems to find religion overall helpful for providing good mental health.

Also notes as follows:




as well as this interesting tibit:

going to church makes people happy NOT belief in god there is a sense of community in church which makes people happy

 

[rld]

An obviously flawed study using children indoctrinated into Christianity and not allowed to question these beliefs and told they are going to burn in hell if they don't believe.

So science when it suits you eh? And if you read the study it actually did not differentiate between religions?

Is that really the best you can do? You really are an intellectually bankrupt cut and paster arn't you?

 

[rld]

going to church makes people happy NOT belief in god there is a sense of community in church which makes people happy

That is your conclusion, not the study's. Tell us about your study that allows you to reach these conclusions.

Your blind hatred of religion makes you as irrational as any religious fanatic. And, like Hitchens, it makes you want to discriminate against people on the basis of their religion. I wonder what we might call that?

 

[canada-man]

That is your conclusion, not the study's. Tell us about your study that allows you to reach these conclusions.

Your blind hatred of religion makes you as irrational as any religious fanatic. And, like Hitchens, it makes you want to discriminate against people on the basis of their religion. I wonder what we might call that?

anykind of regular community meetup makes people happy. it does not have to be a church

So science when it suits you eh? And if you read the study it actually did not differentiate between religions?

Is that really the best you can do? You really are an intellectually bankrupt cut and paster arn't you?

children of relgious parents do not have the freedom to question thier parents when they subjected to religious indoctrination.


and FYI

young people are leaving churches and religions

Young adults aren't sticking with church

http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2007-08-06-church-dropouts_N.htm


Up to 94% of teens leave Church after high school

Read more: http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/god...e-church-after-high-school.html#ixzz1DIIT1vvC


Why teens, young adults are leaving American churches

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ac/20110112...ns_young_adults_are_leaving_american_churches

 

[rld]

anykind of regular community meetup makes people happy. it does not have to be a church




children of relgious parents do not have the freedom to question thier parents when they subjected to religious indoctrination.


and FYI

young people are leaving churches and religions

Young adults aren't sticking with church

http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2007-08-06-church-dropouts_N.htm


Up to 94% of teens leave Church after high school

Read more: http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/god...e-church-after-high-school.html#ixzz1DIIT1vvC


Why teens, young adults are leaving American churches

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ac/20110112...ns_young_adults_are_leaving_american_churches

It is amazing how desperate and dishonest you are. Do you even read what you link?

1) the pych. today data shows that religion brings mental health benefits from a number of factors and just stomp your foot and say it is from something else. You have nothing to support your bare opinion, while the scientific studies say otherwise. Is the real world that uncomfortable for you.

2) the school children being healthier and learning better is also collected in ways that are acceptable in the social science field. And the data doesn't come straight from the kids it comes from teachers and parents as well. As usual you don't have any answer or data, you just want to replace the real data with your worldview. This could be called delusional.

3) You can't even get your basic data in agreement. One study says 1 in four are leaving, and in the other you just quote a radical athiest who uses outlier data to try and make a point. And you ignore the data showing what rates of people come back.

You are simply dishonest in your arguments.

 

[canada-man]

1) the pych. today data shows that religion brings mental health benefits from a number of factors and just stomp your foot and say it is from something else. You have nothing to support your bare opinion, while the scientific studies say otherwise. Is the real world that uncomfortable for you.

children who believe in santa clause, tooth fairies and easter bunnies are also happier? this is not different from grown ups believing in religion

2) the school children being healthier and learning better is also collected in ways that are acceptable in the social science field. And the data doesn't come straight from the kids it comes from teachers and parents as well. As usual you don't have any answer or data, you just want to replace the real data with your worldview. This could be called delusional.

and what will happen when these kids become teenagers do more readings, and go on the internet and get books and read and start to question their beliefs that they were indoctrinated in? will the same researchers stick around and provide updates about thier wellbeing?

You can't even get your basic data in agreement. One study says 1 in four are leaving, and in the other you just quote a radical athiest who uses outlier data to try and make a point. And you ignore the data showing what rates of people come back.

why don't you ask the christian groups who are the loudest to complain about young people leaving church and christianity? they write books on this subject

 

[rld]

children who believe in santa clause, tooth fairies and easter bunnies are also happier? this is not different from grown ups believing in religion

Do you know what we are even talking about? This is not a discussion about trying to prove God exists, it is a discussion about the positive or negative impact of religion. So when a scientific study says "religion is good for children or mental health" all you can come up with is this? Do you suggest we abolish all things that are not objectively proven? Has your hatred made you that disconnected from the real world?

and what will happen when these kids become teenagers do more readings, and go on the internet and get books and read and start to question their beliefs that they were indoctrinated in? will the same researchers stick around and provide updates about thier wellbeing?

It is likely they will veer away from their religion from a period and also likely they will return to it or another one at some time in the future. That is what the data tells us. But whether or not people are leaving religion or staying is irrelevant to the question of whether or not religion is positive or negative. If I told you rates of heroin use and gun violence were going up would you argue that that is good because more people are doing it? You understand that this is a qualitative discussion not a quantitative one right? You know the difference correct?

why don't you ask the christian groups who are the loudest to complain about young people leaving church and christianity? they write books on this subject

Actually you are advancing an argument and suggest this data supports it. So what is the number YOU are relying on to support your argument?

 

[Mervyn]

It is human's inability to accept beliefs that don't agree with his/her own that is the cause of problems, not religion itself. If you hold that religion is the problem then you are naive and attacking a sympton, while completely ignoring the cause.

 

[canada-man]

Theocratic encroachment on Society

As an organization dedicated to reason, science, free inquiry and respect for basic human rights, the Center for Inquiry of Southern Arizona (CFI-SAZ) is troubled that our governor and primarily Republican state legislators enact into law clearly unscientific, religion-based bills generated by the influential Center for Arizona Policy (CAP).

This Phoenix-based fundamentalist Christian lobbying organization got its start in 1995 with a stated goal to protect and defend "conservative and pro-family views." As detailed on its website (www.azpolicy.org), however, its clear intention is to impose its biblical worldview on all Arizonans.

Indeed, 84 bills (22 in the past two years) advanced by the Center for Arizona Policy have become law. No CAP-opposed bills were passed. It should come as no surprise this was due to overwhelming support from Gov. Jan Brewer and Republican House and Senate legislators.

In 2010, The Arizona Capitol Times, a nonpartisan newspaper covering state politics and government, reported that "insiders" judged CAP and its president Cathi Herrod among the most influential lobbying organizations and lobbyists in Phoenix.

Has theocracy come to Arizona? This possibility should concern believers in other faiths and the estimated 760,000 Arizonans who, according to the 2008 American Religious Identification Survey, are nonbelievers.

CFI-SAZ aligns with other national groups such as Americans United for Separation of Church and State, Freedom from Religion Foundation and Secular Coalition for America. We are all fighting to keep religion out of government.

Our focus is to remind elected representatives that they were placed in office not by a particular God or religious organization, but by the pluralistic and multicultural voters of Arizona.

We insist that all legislative decisions on women's reproductive issues, gay rights, adoption, stem-cell research and sex education in schools, among others, be based on reason and science (rational thought).

This stance acknowledges universally accepted facts and evidence which, to date, have provided us with the best understanding of our world. In our view, this approach has been responsible for the greatest advancements in human health and happiness.

By contrast, many Christian fundamentalists claim that fertilized human eggs have souls, homosexuality is a choice, creationism/intelligent design is science-based, abstinence education is effective, euthanasia is murder and the United States was founded on and should be guided by Christian scripture. These are uniquely religious positions. Because these claims are totally unsupported by sound evidence, such positions should be excluded from public policy decision-making.

To be clear, CFI-SAZ respects any religious group's right to lobby lawmakers to support initiatives consistent with their beliefs. Additionally, we do not take the position that policies and bills are necessarily flawed because they emanate from faith-based thinking.

However, when publicly elected officials swear to their God to defend and uphold the secular Constitution of a constituency of many and no faiths, yet demonstrate a non-negotiable commitment to advance their personal beliefs, they have revealed a serious conflict of interest. They should recuse themselves from public office.

If you believe as we do that laws and public policy must be based solely on logic, science and testable evidence, please share that conviction with your state legislators.

Dr. Gilbert D. Shapiro is a Tucson podiatrist, foot surgeon and spokesman for The Center for Inquiry of Southern Arizona

http://azstarnet.com/news/opinion/article_d7a6de2f-97a7-5ab1-b281-8116b606c13a.html

 

[rld]

That didn't take long, the conversation required some thought and CM got back to posting more cut-and-paste on a topic we all agree on...the separation of church and state.

Why I am not surprised? Minds full of hate rarely have room for anything else.

 

[canada-man]

i am only reporting news on religion encroaching on society

 

[Phil C. McNasty]

I always thought he was more an agnostic.

It's hard to tell in quotes like this;

"The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this."

Letter to philosopher Eric Gutkind, January 3, 1954

or this;

"It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere.... Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death."

- Albert Einstein, "Religion and Science," New York Times Magazine, November 9, 1930

As to his being the greatest, that's a thread all on its own.

Einstein acknowledged later in his career that he thought it be impossible, given the complexity of life on earth, there wasnt some type of deity.

I'm too lazy to google, but if you insist I could probably dig it up for you

 

[blackrock13]

Einstein acknowledged later in his career that he thought it be impossible, given the complexity of life on earth, there had to be some type of deity.

I'm too lazy to google, but if you insist I could probably dig it up for you

That sounds almost a textbook definition of Divine Intelligence.

How late in life? The world can look different from your death bead. One of those quotes came when he was 70 and he died 2 years later.

Here's a link with ~50 quotes from Him on God and religion and I'm hard pressed to find any that support your position on his belief in God.

http://www.spaceandmotion.com/albert-einstein-god-religion-theology.htm

How about these from his last couiple of years on this earth;

“The idea of a personal God is quite alien to me and seems even naïve.”

Albert Einstein in a letter to Beatrice Frohlich, December 17, 1952; Einstein Archive 59-797; from Alice Calaprice, ed., The Expanded Quotable Einstein, Princeton, New Jersey: Princeton University Press, 2000, p. 217.

“I am a deeply religious nonbeliever.… This is a somewhat new kind of religion.”

Albert Einstein, in a letter to Hans Muehsam, March 30, 1954; Einstein Archive 38-434; from Alice Calaprice, ed., The Expanded Quotable Einstein, Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press, 2000, p. 218.

 

[Phil C. McNasty]

That sounds almost a textbook definition of Divine Intelligence.

How late in life? The world can look different from your death bead. One of those quotes came when he was 70 and he died 2 years later.

Here's a link with ~50 quotes from Him on God and religion and I'm hard pressed to find any that support your position on his belief in God.

http://www.spaceandmotion.com/albert-einstein-god-religion-theology.htm

How about these from his last couiple of years on this earth;

“The idea of a personal God is quite alien to me and seems even naïve.”

Albert Einstein in a letter to Beatrice Frohlich, December 17, 1952; Einstein Archive 59-797; from Alice Calaprice, ed., The Expanded Quotable Einstein, Princeton, New Jersey: Princeton University Press, 2000, p. 217.

“I am a deeply religious nonbeliever.… This is a somewhat new kind of religion.”

Albert Einstein, in a letter to Hans Muehsam, March 30, 1954; Einstein Archive 38-434; from Alice Calaprice, ed., The Expanded Quotable Einstein, Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press, 2000, p. 218.

And for every post like yours, there's one of mine: http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/einstein.html

Einstein believed due to the complexity of the universe there had to be some kind of Creator. What he couldnt accept was the human suffering at the hands of this same creator, so I guess he was kinda like me "sitting on the fence and not really sure"

 

[danmand]

And for every post like yours, there's one of mine: http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/einstein.html

Einstein believed due to the complexity of the universe there had to be some kind of Creator. What he couldnt accept was the human suffering at the hands of this same creator, so I guess he was kinda like me "sitting on the fence and not really sure"

The only pronlem is that if one reads the link you provide, it clearly recognizes that Einstein does not believe in a "God".