Why Religion Fails
- Thread starter canada-man
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I just thought I would make a brief comment on this study because I oddly enough ended up reading about it yesterday in a book about the life and politics of Stephen Jay Gould.
Firstly, there is no agreement on how to measure intelligence.
Secondly the IQ differences recorded in this study were very small, likely well within the margin of error.
Thirdly there were some serious methological flaws in the study.
It is a really interesting area of discussion but could use a thread all of its own.
I have no problem with creationism and creation myths being taught in a religion class, but any theory that has to appeal to a supernatural force, by definition, is not science, and should not be taught in a science class.
We also have the problem that if we teach, say the christian creation story, do we not then have to teach non-christian creation stories in order to ensure that our tax dollars are not going to favour one religion?
Good idea. Teach them side by side and give the students a good laugh.
To RID and some others, try not to use the word Creation and Science side by side. It brings on a major gag reflex in some.
It's not my term. Creation science is kind of the broader term used by intelligent design people to try and hide the fact that what they are doing has nothing to do with science. It is a generally used term in the discussion on the issue.
And if you think that ID or CS arguments cannot be well crafted enough to fool people who do not have good scientific literacy, you are mistaken.
Just so the "straw man" is not allowed to just stand there to be smacked around:
To use the words of Dr. K.W. Bolle, Creation Stories are myth in the sense of "an expression of the sacred in words: it reports realities and events from the origin of the world that remain valid for the basis and purpose of all there is. Consequently, a myth functions as a model for human activity, society, wisdom, and knowledge." They do not imply a literal historical truth.
All "mainstream" Christian Denominations (e.g. The UCC, the Anglican/Episcopal Church, The various Eastern (Greek, Russian etc...) Orthodox Churches, the Roman Catholic Church, the United Methodist Church, the Presbyterian Church USA etc. . . .) believe that Evolution is compatible with Christian teaching.
To use the words of Dr. K.W. Bolle, Creation Stories are myth in the sense of "an expression of the sacred in words: it reports realities and events from the origin of the world that remain valid for the basis and purpose of all there is. Consequently, a myth functions as a model for human activity, society, wisdom, and knowledge." They do not imply a literal historical truth.
All "mainstream" Christian Denominations (e.g. The UCC, the Anglican/Episcopal Church, The various Eastern (Greek, Russian etc...) Orthodox Churches, the Roman Catholic Church, the United Methodist Church, the Presbyterian Church USA etc. . . .) believe that Evolution is compatible with Christian teaching.
Not if you push them, politely, of course. Their fall back final position tends to be variations of, 'but that's what I believe', and it's hard to make any progress after that point is reached. The real hard case believers fall back to, 'well it's the word of God and the word of God is inerrant. At which time you pick up your coffee mug, go into the next room, get a refill, and move on.
If you are "saying" what I believe you are, may I sugest that you seem to be confusing most members of "Mainstream" Christian Denominations, with fundementalists such as many members of the Southern Baptist Convention.
You do know Einstein, the greatest scientist of all, believed in a some form of creator or god himself dont you?!
I always thought he was more an agnostic.
It's hard to tell in quotes like this;
"The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this."
Letter to philosopher Eric Gutkind, January 3, 1954
or this;
"It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere.... Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death."
- Albert Einstein, "Religion and Science," New York Times Magazine, November 9, 1930
As to his being the greatest, that's a thread all on its own.
Oh...what a surprise...Canada-man has been on Youtube.
Funny, just when people are actually starting to have a conversation the resident hater adds something meaningful to it.
This is essentially Christopher Hitchens basic argument, followed by all the negative things religion has caused.
There is also a school of thought that community or group co-operation enhances survival and thus is an evolutionary trait, but it is still controversial.
I also point out the word "should" in the quote. We really don't know if things will function that way because we have yet to see a state or community of any scale or history that does not have some sort of spiritual beliefs. And it doesn't look like we will be any time soon.
The closest thing I can think of is the Czech republic and they are a morose lot...
Catholic Church’s collusion in another momentous crime exposed
Spain’s stolen babies scandal is another dark legacy of Franco
By Ann Cahill, Europe Correspondent
Monday, February 07, 2011
THOUSANDS of babies disappeared over a 40-year period in Spain, stolen from their mothers and handed over for adoption by the state and the Catholic Church.
Gradually over the past few months the story of these stolen babies — it could be as many as 300,000 — has emerged and with it more details of how such a momentous crime could be carried out.
As hundreds of people call for an investigation and many suspect they may be one of the children kidnapped at birth, it seems they may never find out the truth — at least not officially.
Spain had one of the most vicious civil wars in Europe but the atrocities continued long after as the victor, Francisco Franco, maintained and strengthened his hold on the country.
In 1940 he legalised taking babies from their parents if their "moral education" was at risk.
In Franco’s Spain this meant any parent whose social, political and religious views did not coincide with his.
Many of these children had parents who were jailed for their leftist political leanings.
The babies were usually put into Catholic orphanages and many went on to become nuns or priests or were adopted, often illegally.
However, when Spain became a democracy after Franco’s death and the law was revoked, the despicable practice continued. This time the babies were not forcibly taken from their parents, but stolen and sold to couples looking to adopt children.
It was a well thought-out operation that involved the collusion of a considerable number of people, particularly in hospitals. Mothers not from the area, and especially if they were poor, were the main targets.
They were told their babies had died and the hospital would take care of the arrangements. Later searches of cemeteries by families revealed no records of births or deaths and undertakers have since revealed the practice of burying little empty coffins.
The well-known Spanish judge, Baltasar Garzon raised the issue of the Franco regime’s baby thefts two years ago when he estimated 30,000 babies were involved.
He is known for trying to have the Chilean dictator Augusto Pinochet extradited for crimes against humanity and for investigating the execution and disappearance of more than 100,000 Republicans — the losing side in the Spanish civil war
He was prevented from pursuing this under legislation introduced in 1977 declaring an amnesty for all those who committed atrocities during and in the years after the 1936-1939 civil war.
As Spain emerged from 30 years of brutal dictatorship, the politicians who battled against the extremists and the army to introduce democracy decided the best option was to let bygones be bygones.
It has worked to an amazing degree but if you ask enough questions of thoughtful Spaniards they display a deep understanding of their past and the difficulty of keeping it in the past.
In the last few days Spain’s attorney general has ruled there will be no national investigation into the stolen babies. Instead each person will have to pursue his or her own case at local level in an attempt to prevent any national outrage.
One town, La Línea in the southern region of Andalucia, has opened an investigation on foot of complaints by six families about babies disappearing from three clinics in the town.
An organisation, Anadir, has been set up by Antonio Barroso who suspects he was stolen and illegally adopted, and they are taking cases to the courts in a number of regions.
A Basque prosecutor is opening an investigation following a complaint by a woman who thrown out by her family when she became pregnant in the 1980s. She says she was pressurised by a Catholic priest into giving up her baby for adoption — a case that would find resonance in the Ireland of that time.
This appeared in the printed version of the Irish Examiner Monday, February 07, 2011
Read more: http://www.irishexaminer.com/world/...rk-legacy-of-franco-144442.html#ixzz1DHd8M2Rt
Spain’s stolen babies scandal is another dark legacy of Franco
By Ann Cahill, Europe Correspondent
Monday, February 07, 2011
THOUSANDS of babies disappeared over a 40-year period in Spain, stolen from their mothers and handed over for adoption by the state and the Catholic Church.
Gradually over the past few months the story of these stolen babies — it could be as many as 300,000 — has emerged and with it more details of how such a momentous crime could be carried out.
As hundreds of people call for an investigation and many suspect they may be one of the children kidnapped at birth, it seems they may never find out the truth — at least not officially.
Spain had one of the most vicious civil wars in Europe but the atrocities continued long after as the victor, Francisco Franco, maintained and strengthened his hold on the country.
In 1940 he legalised taking babies from their parents if their "moral education" was at risk.
In Franco’s Spain this meant any parent whose social, political and religious views did not coincide with his.
Many of these children had parents who were jailed for their leftist political leanings.
The babies were usually put into Catholic orphanages and many went on to become nuns or priests or were adopted, often illegally.
However, when Spain became a democracy after Franco’s death and the law was revoked, the despicable practice continued. This time the babies were not forcibly taken from their parents, but stolen and sold to couples looking to adopt children.
It was a well thought-out operation that involved the collusion of a considerable number of people, particularly in hospitals. Mothers not from the area, and especially if they were poor, were the main targets.
They were told their babies had died and the hospital would take care of the arrangements. Later searches of cemeteries by families revealed no records of births or deaths and undertakers have since revealed the practice of burying little empty coffins.
The well-known Spanish judge, Baltasar Garzon raised the issue of the Franco regime’s baby thefts two years ago when he estimated 30,000 babies were involved.
He is known for trying to have the Chilean dictator Augusto Pinochet extradited for crimes against humanity and for investigating the execution and disappearance of more than 100,000 Republicans — the losing side in the Spanish civil war
He was prevented from pursuing this under legislation introduced in 1977 declaring an amnesty for all those who committed atrocities during and in the years after the 1936-1939 civil war.
As Spain emerged from 30 years of brutal dictatorship, the politicians who battled against the extremists and the army to introduce democracy decided the best option was to let bygones be bygones.
It has worked to an amazing degree but if you ask enough questions of thoughtful Spaniards they display a deep understanding of their past and the difficulty of keeping it in the past.
In the last few days Spain’s attorney general has ruled there will be no national investigation into the stolen babies. Instead each person will have to pursue his or her own case at local level in an attempt to prevent any national outrage.
One town, La Línea in the southern region of Andalucia, has opened an investigation on foot of complaints by six families about babies disappearing from three clinics in the town.
An organisation, Anadir, has been set up by Antonio Barroso who suspects he was stolen and illegally adopted, and they are taking cases to the courts in a number of regions.
A Basque prosecutor is opening an investigation following a complaint by a woman who thrown out by her family when she became pregnant in the 1980s. She says she was pressurised by a Catholic priest into giving up her baby for adoption — a case that would find resonance in the Ireland of that time.
This appeared in the printed version of the Irish Examiner Monday, February 07, 2011
Read more: http://www.irishexaminer.com/world/...rk-legacy-of-franco-144442.html#ixzz1DHd8M2Rt
you are such a well read fellow CM, you read the Irish Examiner? What a great source for news on Spain.
Maybe you could run your own hate-site with your communist friend Hitchens?
They did not do the things they did in the name of atheism. They had political beliefs that drove them.
not one of them has a majority of athiests. Belief in a life force or spirit is a belief in the supernatural which is rejected by athiesm.
You really need to think a little about this issue before you claim multiple countries have a majority of athiests.
Find me one serious commentator who agrees with your conclusion.
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