Ford's plan to hire more police, only cops don't want them

Brill

Well-known member
Jun 29, 2008
8,675
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He'll probably give them hefty raises as well anyway, who cares if there's no money? What a joke.
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http://www.thestar.com/news/article...re-more-police-only-cops-don-t-want-them?bn=1

Robyn Doolittle
Urban Affairs Reporter

Following through on a campaign promise, Mayor Rob Ford has vowed to hire 100 more police officers as soon as he finds the cash.

But there’s one problem: the Toronto Police Service doesn’t want them.

Police officials are reluctant to publicly refuse additional manpower, but those in high-ranking circles are questioning why the tight-fisted mayor made the costly pledge without consulting the service, its union or its board, about whether more officers are needed.

“Part of the difficulty is the chief hasn’t had any discussions with the mayor yet,” said Chief Bill Blair’s spokesman, Mark Pugash. “The chief has said that he wants to discuss that with the mayor before he comments.”

Since 2005, crime is down across Toronto by about 30 per cent. Over that same period, the force has been struggling to get hold of its worsening financial crisis.

Last year, the police board was left no choice but to defer millions in payments to a reserve fund in order to balance a bare-bones $896 million budget. That number is up $40 million from the previous year due almost entirely to salary commitments.

Wages and benefits account for 90 per cent of the police budget, which is also the largest item in Toronto’s $9.2 billion operating budget.

The mayor and his team have estimated the new officers would cost the city $15 million a year, which includes salaries, training and equipment.

“Adding 100 more officers at this point would only worsen the problem,” said one top official. “There are much better uses for additional funds Mr. Ford could offer.”

For one, in three years the service’s strained budget is already scheduled to take a $4 million hit, when federal funding for 38 recent recruits expires, the official said.

For another, the Toronto Anti-Violence Intervention Strategy, a community neigbourhood policing initiative credited with the crime drop, survives on intermittent provincial dollars.

Police board Chair Alok Mukherjee said ideally, initiatives such as TAVIS and the School Resource Officers program, which is also propped up by outside funding, would be secured first, but that if additional officers were hired, they would be put to good use.

“My sense is that there can always be use made of police officers. . . . In a city this size, how do you define need? You can always use additional officers,” said Mukherjee.

The number of police officers on the Toronto force is decided by city council.

In late 2005, following a record year of gang homicides, council agreed to increase the complement to 5,510 strong. There are sometimes slight fluctuations due to the lag time between when officers retire and new classes graduate, but the Toronto force is legally required to keep its numbers within that range.

When asked if he felt the current staffing levels to be sufficient, Mukherjee said, “We have obviously felt that the numbers that this council approved were adequate for what we were using police officers for.”

If Ford does decide to hire 100 more police officers — a commitment he reaffirmed to Jerry Agar on Newstalk 1010 in mid-November — council would need to agree.

Once finalized, it would be politically difficult to reduce the complement, creating permanent budget pressure.

Acknowledging financial factors, police association president Mike McCormack said the service is currently conducting a pilot project to evaluate how officer strength is being deployed.

“It will help make the determination if we need more officers,” he said.

That project, which has been ongoing in five divisions for the last 50 weeks, is scheduled to go force-wide in March for another year.

“At this point, I’m not advocating for 100 police officers. I am pleased that the mayor has an interest in adequate staffing levels,” said McCormack.

Ford has still not formally spoken with Chief Blair or board chair Mukherjee since his October victory.

McCormack spoke with Ford prior to the election about police issues in general and briefly in recent weeks when Ford returned a call of congratulations.

The officer debate is playing out just weeks before the association and board enter contentious bargaining talks. During the last round of bargaining in 2008, the two sides were forced to enlist the help of a provincial arbitrator for the first time in a decade. This followed nine months of negotiating, which ended in a deadlock.

The arbitrator controversially awarded officers a 10 per cent raise by 2010. Critics, including vice-board chair and councillor Pam McConnell, lamented that cash-strapped Toronto could not afford the decision.
 

nottyboi

Well-known member
May 14, 2008
25,516
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WE NEED MORE COPS. We can now put 3 cops at each laser instead of 2!!!!! Also as long as Timmys keeps expanding, we need to keep the cop/donut shop ratio constant!!!!
 

blackrock13

Banned
Jun 6, 2009
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This not an unexpected response Brill, as the rank and file will have to say gumbye to the regular overtime and the bucks that come with it. The upper levels have to appear to support the lower ranks in private, but are caught in the middle.

Many labour/work study shows that after a certain number of overtime hours, the return on quality work diminishes, so the new officers will result in more consistent quality and better return on the cost, but the present officer want the bucks. It will be a hard sell.
 

slowandeasy

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May 4, 2003
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Not sure where you are going with this, other than to make it more obvious that you did not vote for Rob Ford or that you have some sort of vendetta against him.
Does it make sense to hire 100 more police? I don't know.

Its seems to me that the main problem with the police force these days is that they can't seem to spend their money properly. So they spend their time raising funds (issuing tickets) instead of policing. I find it difficult to understand why any police force would not want more feet on the street.

More importantly, Ford has not even met with the chief of police as yet, so no decision has been made..
 

slowandeasy

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This not an unexpected response Brill, as the rank and file will have to say gumbye to the regular overtime and the bucks that come with it. The upper levels have to appear to support the lower ranks in private, but are caught in the middle.

Many labour/work study shows that after a certain number of overtime hours, the return on quality work diminishes, so the new officers will result in more consistent quality and better return on the cost, but the present officer want the bucks. It will a hard sell.
Thanks blackrock, interesting insight.
 

slowandeasy

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May 4, 2003
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WE NEED MORE COPS. We can now put 3 cops at each laser instead of 2!!!!! Also as long as Timmys keeps expanding, we need to keep the cop/donut shop ratio constant!!!!
Haven't you heard of carpal tunnel syndrome? Pulling that trigger on the laser 8 hour's day is a difficult job. And don't forget the paper cuts when handing out the tickets.
 

danmand

Well-known member
Nov 28, 2003
46,978
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Also as long as Timmys keeps expanding, we need to keep the cop/donut shop ratio constant!!!!
That is the key!!!!!

Think of the scandal if a Timmies ever get robbed.
 

oldjones

CanBarelyRe Member
Aug 18, 2001
24,474
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Since Ford and Blair have yet to chat, this amounts to media churning. The points are well taken: without extra money to pay for them—about $150K per—these new cops will be a classic white elephant (a gift that beggars the recipient). I somehow doubt a typical year can offer the $15 million in overtime savings that would be needed to pay for them. In any case, as that's work being done already, it wouldn't add much policing to the city. And with 90% of the Police budget going to personnel already there would seem to be few other places to cut.

Mind you, cutting the 90 guys who removed their nametags would be a start. So would selling some cars and putting guys back on the street to get to know their neighbourhoods.
 

blackrock13

Banned
Jun 6, 2009
40,084
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Since Ford and Blair have yet to chat, this amounts to media churning. The points are well taken: without extra money to pay for them—about $150K per—these new cops will be a classic white elephant (a gift that beggars the recipient). I somehow doubt a typical year can offer the $15 million in overtime savings that would be needed to pay for them. In any case, as that's work being done already, it wouldn't add much policing to the city. And with 90% of the Police budget going to personnel already there would seem to be few other places to cut.

Mind you, cutting the 90 guys who removed their nametags would be a start. So would selling some cars and putting guys back on the street to get to know their nabes.
Sometimes typos can be funny, but well said. Caught a cold did you?
 

oldjones

CanBarelyRe Member
Aug 18, 2001
24,474
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Thanks to Merriam Webster online:

nabe
noun \ˈnāb\
Definition of NABE
1
: a neighborhood theater —usually used in plural with the
2
: neighborhood

I intended the second sense blackrock. In my humourless way I've removed the ambiguity your quote will preserve. Thanks.
 

blackrock13

Banned
Jun 6, 2009
40,084
1
0
Thanks to Merriam Webster online:

nabe
noun \ˈnāb\
Definition of NABE
1
: a neighborhood theater —usually used in plural with the
2
: neighborhood

I intended the second sense blackrock. In my humourless way I've removed the ambiguity your quote will preserve. Thanks.
I've never professed to be a wordmeister, so I've learned a new word today. Thanks.
 

mandrill

monkey
Aug 23, 2001
83,988
121,198
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But the whole point of the news item is that it is quintessential Ford. He makes a campaign promise that is not fully thought out because he considers it is the kind of pitch that will yank in right wing votes. No research went into his promise.

When he attempts to put it into effect, lo and behold the politics don't work out and the plan fizzles out in a damp, silly fart. Or will soon.

Now for the other fifty or so silly promises he made.
 

slowandeasy

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May 4, 2003
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Mind you, cutting the 90 guys who removed their nametags would be a start. So would selling some cars and putting guys back on the street to get to know their neighbourhoods.
So what is the issue here. Is our police force being underfunded, over paid or ???.
From what I understand, alot of our police manpower goes to handing out tickets to raise money for the city. What percentage of the funding for the police comes from the city? Does the city receive money for policing from the Provincial or Federal government?
 

great bear

The PUNisher
Apr 11, 2004
16,167
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Nice Dens
Thanks to Merriam Webster online:

nabe
noun \ˈnāb\
Definition of NABE
1
: a neighborhood theater —usually used in plural with the
2
: neighborhood

I intended the second sense blackrock. In my humourless way I've removed the ambiguity your quote will preserve. Thanks.
No need to rationalize the word Nabe. I recall watching a TV show many years ago called "Nabe that Tune".
 

slowandeasy

Why am I here?
May 4, 2003
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Since Ford and Blair have yet to chat, this amounts to media churning. The points are well taken: without extra money to pay for them—about $150K per—these new cops will be a classic white elephant (a gift that beggars the recipient). I somehow doubt a typical year can offer the $15 million in overtime savings that would be needed to pay for them. In any case, as that's work being done already, it wouldn't add much policing to the city. And with 90% of the Police budget going to personnel already there would seem to be few other places to cut.

Mind you, cutting the 90 guys who removed their nametags would be a start. So would selling some cars and putting guys back on the street to get to know their neighbourhoods.
Some number crunching based on the article:
1. Budget for Toronto Police is 9.2 billion.
2. 90 % of that is wages and benefits.
3. 90% of 9.2 Billion = $8.28 billion is wages and benefits.
4. The cost of hiring 100 new police officers = $15 million.
5. Officers get paid time and a half for over time
6. EDUCATED GUESS: If 5 % of the wages and benefits being paid are over time then that means
5% of 8.25 = $0.414Billion dollars is spent on over time or $414 million is being paid in overtime.

7. $414million is a hell of a lot higher than $15 million.

I am sure that the city employs enought actuarial professionals who can make a better anaylsis, but it does seem pretty
straight forward that the city could use more officers.

The article below was an interesting read.
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/cri...2--toronto-police-100k-club-continues-to-grow
 

oldjones

CanBarelyRe Member
Aug 18, 2001
24,474
12
38
Some number crunching based on the article:
1. Budget for Toronto Police is 9.2 billion.
2. 90 % of that is wages and benefits.
3. 90% of 9.2 Billion = $8.28 billion is wages and benefits.
4. The cost of hiring 100 new police officers = $15 million.
5. Officers get paid time and a half for over time
6. EDUCATED GUESS: If 5 % of the wages and benefits being paid are over time then that means
5% of 8.25 = $0.414Billion dollars is spent on over time or $414 million is being paid in overtime.

7. $414million is a hell of a lot higher than $15 million.

I am sure that the city employs enought actuarial professionals who can make a better anaylsis, but it does seem pretty
straight forward that the city could use more officers.

The article below was an interesting read.
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/cri...2--toronto-police-100k-club-continues-to-grow
And when the court case is thrown out because the testifying officer who woulda been ron OT was replaced? OR the detective was sent home instead of following up on that late-in-the day clue, and the replacement who comes in late in the day is clueless? And how's a new hire gonna write up the reports of the PCs just off shift who are now looking at a couple of hours of paperwork?

Policing isn't an assembly line where the workers are just plug in robots. But your arithmetic was interesting—for all you gave no source for the 5% OT—and I'm sure when you reveal it to Chief Blair he'll change his opinion.
 

slowandeasy

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May 4, 2003
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You are taking my cursory analysis a bit too serious aren't you?

Did you read what the article said about Officer Thompson.

"Michael Thompson, who was paid $161,892, and Abdulhameed Virani, who collected $151,042, were among the 380 constables who topped the $100K club in 2009.

Thompson and Virani didn't rack up their overtime as homicide detectives on 24-hour call.
Instead, they nearly doubled their salaries – the base salary of a first-class constable is $87,500 – in large measure by writing traffic tickets that require them to make frequent court appearances.
Uniformed officers grumble privately that politicians don't mind because they generate income for the city"


My 5% came from an edumacated guess nothing to back it up. My actual edumacated guess was 15% OT (based on some police officer friends)
but I decided to take a very conservative approach and put it at 1/3 of my guess or 5%. I was quite careful to word my post carefully.
As I mentioned the city employs quite a few acturarial and accounting professionals who should be able to do a better analysis.

Chief Blair's position... again playing politics... I believe Blackrock was correct when he mentioned that the Chief and the Police Association have to be very careful
what they say for fear of their own people.

As far as someone getting off because the officer was not there, it happens already. A PC getting off shift and not chasing down a clue.. Happens already...
However, to answer your question, I did not advocate cutting all OT hours, this is where some good old common sense should be applied.




Chief Blair? THE CHIEF BLAIR who recently has embarassed himself over something so stupid.
 
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