Harpo accuses UN of anti-semitism.....

[blackrock13]

You know, Blackrock, maybe you're right.
Lets just go with Eric Blair's ruling and call the argument over and me the clear winner.
Done.

Fat freaken chance!

 

[flubadub]

Or maybe you can find me something in Goldstone that says Israel can't inspect cargo? Or from the ICRC? Nope. Not there.

You still haven't answered to being caught out on these three lies:
You said Goldstone lied in his report.
You said Goldstone announced his conclusions before even being hired to carry out his fact finding mission.
You said that Hamas says settlers are a legitimate target based only on where they live.

You fudged some quotes and took some others out of context to try to prove them, and tried to change your position, but they were particularly lame efforts.
And since you can't prove anything against Goldstone, I'd say you should support his report. Might as well support the Gaza flotilla report from the UN HRC while you're at it.

And Blackrock, I know it gets boring watching Fuji being repeatedly proven a moral cretin, but if you'd care to take a turn in the ring I'm sure it would at least be a change from Fuji's repetitive crap.

 

[basketcase]

You know, Blackrock, maybe you're right.
Lets just go with Eric Blair's ruling and call the argument over and me the clear winner.
Done.

Interesting choice, him being the only guy in the thread who agrees with you.


p.s. where is gryfin?

 

[fuji]

You said Goldstone lied in his report.

He did lie. He said he didn't have any evidence on what information IDF had, and then he concluded something different later. He lied. It's just propaganda.

The valid conclusion he SHOULD have written is something like "Israel's refusal to co-operate has made it impossible to determine whether or not any war crimes were committed" and then demanded co-operation. That would have been honest. To conclude that there was a war crime when he PLAINLY lacks essential information--lying. Bald face lie.

You said Goldstone announced his conclusions before even being hired to carry out his fact finding mission.

Yup he's the one who made the allegations in the first place--hardly an unbiased party. He wrote that both sides had committed war crimes before even investigating.

You said that Hamas says settlers are a legitimate target based only on where they live.

The statements in that article, whether you like it or not, are enough to indict Hamas for the most serious of war crimes. Civilians do not become legitimate targets just because they own guns, nor do they become legitimate targets just because they are defended by an armed forces. Canadian and American civilians have guns and are defended by the Canadian and American armed forces--as are the civilians of almost every country.

For you to say that makes them legitimate targets shows how extraordinarily biased you are. For Hamas to say it, just to say it, is a war crime.

The plain fact is that it ANNOYS you that it's illegal to murder settlers because you very plainly support the killing of Israeli civilians by Palestinians. Your fantasy, your dream, is a world in which it's open season on Israeli civilians and you look for any excuse to justify their murder, as in this case.

 

[flubadub]

Fuji, you already tried to support your outrageous lies with links that were easily debunked.
I find it pathetic that you are trying to repeat them again, after they've been shot down.
You are a liar, and a bad one.

 

[fuji]

Fuji, you already tried to support your outrageous lies with links that were easily debunked.

You have debunked nothing. You just repeat the same tired old propaganda and ignore the facts. You have your head sunk deeply into the sand.

You have not responded in substance to the point that Hamas commits a war crime in asserting it can attack settlers. You respond by repeating actually the propaganda claims Hamas itself makes despite the fact they have been thoroughly rejected by the ICRC and everyone else.

You have not responded in substance to the point that Goldstone simply does not have the evidence he says he has--that he lies. You dig out the phrase where he says he looked into it--the lie itself--and assume that just because he wrote that in his report it's true. Never mind that he's confessed to not having the evidence and that the crime turns not on who was attacked but who IDF thought it was attacking. You repeatedly ignore that point and simply repeat the debunked tripe from the Goldstone report itself. That is idiotic.

You may think you've fooled yourself with your continued idiotic postings but others have eyes to see and you've made a laughing stock of yourself. Your only "supporter" is Eric, who is the one person on this board who has been ridiculed even more than you have--you respond to criticism with mindless propaganda, while Eric just runs and hides from the facts.

 

[flubadub]

Oh Fuji, you sound a bit mad today. Or maybe looney, can't decide which.

Here you go.
Hamas and Israel should both be taken to the ICC, based on the Goldstone report and the UN HRC Flotilla report and then they can settle the matter of who is the worst war criminal. Fair?

Your Goldstone quips are tired and boring, but mostly repeatedly dismissed as minor quips designed to stifle debate about the number and scale of Israeli war crimes. As such I'm tired of pointing out how wrong you are. Unless you're willing to discuss all the crimes outlined in the Goldstone report, I'm not going back to the Hamas police argument. You've been proven wrong, and caught out lying and that's enough for me.
Lets wait until it hits the ICC and we'll see who is correct.

You lied and you lost.
So sad to be you.

Time to move on.
Perhaps you'd rather discuss this quote:

However, entrenched Israeli settlement policy, long aided and abetted by the US, has made a two-state solution in former Mandatory Palestine impossible. An alternative formula may eventually be found, but not without many years of violence and rancour to come.

or this

According to one State Department document, Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak gave an ultimatum to US Congressmen to “resolve” Iran’s nuclear program by the end of 2010 or that a “military solution” would be sought.

At the same time, Barak conceded that an Israeli attack on Iran would result in “unacceptable collateral damage,” though this did not appear to dissuade him from the belief that such an attack must be launched within the “window of opportunity” that he believed would close at the end of 2010 or shortly thereafter.

US officials were said to have been concerned about the reliability of Israeli assessments, noting that Israel had predicted that Iran would have nuclear weapons by 1998 “at the latest” and has repeatedly updated to a new deadline every few years.

or this

In a June 2009 meeting between Defense Minister Ehud Barak and a U.S. congressional delegation, Barak claimed that the Israeli government "had consulted with Egypt and Fatah prior to Operation Cast Lead, asking if they were willing to assume control of Gaza once Israel defeated Hamas."

"Not surprisingly," Barak said in the meeting, Israel "received negative answers from both."

But not Goldstone, you've been proven wrong enough.

 

[fuji]

Hamas and Israel should both be taken to the ICC, based on the Goldstone report and the UN HRC Flotilla report and then they can settle the matter of who is the worst war criminal. Fair?

Nope. Propaganda.

First of all there's no moral equivalence here, Hamas is accused of the most serious war crimes but even if ICC were to rule against Hamas what would be done about it? What army, other than IDF , would enforce it?

Second of all Israel is more than capable of investigating itself, therefore, per the ICC charter, and common sense, the ICC has no jurisdiction.

Third the ICC is structurally flawed and it is important that it NOT be empowered as it is an undemocratic institution, one run by dictators and authoritarians.

Your Goldstone quips are tired and boring, but mostly repeatedly dismissed as minor quips designed to stifle debate about the number and scale of Israeli war crimes.

Nope. That's your propaganda answer. In fact it undermines the most serious charges Goldstone makes and demonstrates his bias--the charge that Israel attacked civilians is the most serious charge he makes, and it turns out to be bunk. He SHOULD have simply written that he did not have the information and criticized Israel for failing to provide it. Instead he made up charges that he couldn't substantiate--he lied.

I note you actually disputed NOTHING that I wrote--you just had a lot of hot air and a bunch of propaganda. You say you "proved" me wrong but in fact did not argue against a SINGLE point. Pathetic!!

 

[flubadub]

First of all there's no moral equivalence here, Hamas is accused of the most serious war crimes but even if ICC were to rule against Hamas what would be done about it? What army, other than IDF , would enforce it?

I thought you said you read the Goldstone report? Apparently you have no comprehension. And while you're at it, read the flotilla report.
And any army other then the IDF, P.A. and Hamas.

Second of all Israel is more than capable of investigating itself, therefore, per the ICC charter, and common sense, the ICC has no jurisdiction.

sigh.
Just like it let off the two found guilty of using a 9 year old as human shields. Show trials designed to stifle ICC investigations, not justice.

Third the ICC is structurally flawed and it is important that it NOT be empowered as it is an undemocratic institution, one run by dictators and authoritarians.

As opposed to Israel and the US?
The US, torturing empire with gulags and the lovely trials at Gitmo?
Israel, human rights abuser on its way to ethnic cleansing?
sigh.

Instead he made up charges that he couldn't substantiate--he lied.

Debunked.
done and done, I'm tired of you repeating the same crap that you have absolutely no substantiation for.

I note you actually disputed NOTHING that I wrote--you just had a lot of hot air and a bunch of propaganda. You say you "proved" me wrong but in fact did not argue against a SINGLE point. Pathetic!!

sigh.
No, I debunked the only links you used, clearly showed the misquotes and proven you to be lying.
Repeating your lies doesn't make them any better.

 

[fuji]

I thought you said you read the Goldstone report? Apparently you have no comprehension. And while you're at it, read the flotilla report.
And any army other then the IDF, P.A. and Hamas.

... you have said exactly nothing here ...

Just like it let off the two found guilty of using a 9 year old as human shields. Show trials designed to stifle ICC investigations, not justice.

... same sentence as they'd get in Canada, moving on ...

As opposed to Israel and the US?

Yup. Israel's courts, and domestic US courts, are far superior. Non-democratic courts like the ICC should be avoided at all costs, if you want to know why look at Gitmo: That's what happens when you place a court outside the ordinary protections of democracy. As opposed to Gitmo or the ICC, courts in Israel and in the United States are extremely good and offer the accused substantial rights to a fair trial.

Gitmo went through the motions of a court process but without the fundamental protections afforded under the US constitution it turned into a farce. The ICC offers no such guarantees either, and worse, instead of being backed by the military of a democracy (which is already damning) the ICC is backed directly by authoritarians and dictators. You can expect ICC show trials to be even worse than Gitmo as a result, lacking the democratic guarantees necessary for a fair trial, and subject to political manipulation and interference by its democracy hating masters.

What we need are good solid courts seriously backed by fundamental democratic principles, answerable to democratic legislatures, and subject to strong constitutional guarantees, not crap like the military show trials at Gitmo and the dictatorial undemocratic ICC.

Also:

You have, still, failed to say how you think an ICC (or any other) judgement against Hamas would be enforced--what army, other than IDF, do you think is going to go in and force Hamas to comply? Are you suggesting the US army should deploy to Gaza, for example?

Debunked.

Nope. You say "debunked" but in fact all you have ever written is that you think it is "minor" and a "quibble", in which you are wrong. This is your lame attempt to sidestep damning criticism, attempting to brush it off as a "minor quibble". The reality is that it's illegal to intentionally target civilians. Goldstone admits to having know knowledge, evidence, or information about intent or targeting. He thus CANNOT conclude whether a crime was committed--but he does anyway, because he isn't interested in the truth, he was hired to write propaganda and that's what he does.

 

[flubadub]

Non-democratic courts like the ICC should be avoided at all costs, if you want to know why look at Gitmo: That's what happens when you place a court outside the ordinary protections of democracy.

Non-democratic courts?
Three things, your shining example of the US runs Gitmo. Therefore, democratic countries do not guarantee good courts.
Second, up until you found that Palestinians had petitioned the court to consider their cases, you backed the ICC, proving once again that you are morally bankrupt and trying to back Israel above the law and morality.
Third, the UN is run democratically.

Gitmo went through the motions of a court process but without the fundamental protections afforded under the US constitution it turned into a farce. The ICC offers no such guarantees either, and worse, instead of being backed by the military of a democracy (which is already damning) the ICC is backed directly by authoritarians and dictators. You can expect ICC show trials to be even worse than Gitmo as a result, lacking the democratic guarantees necessary for a fair trial, and subject to political manipulation and interference by its democracy hating masters.

You do realize that this makes no sense?

Goldstone admits to having know knowledge, evidence, or information about intent or targeting. He thus CANNOT conclude whether a crime was committed

Blatantly wrong.
That is not what he said.
Stop lying.

 

[nottyboi]

Well if you are going to use that basis then you automatically absolve the Palis as their rockets are so inaccurate they cannot really be "targeted" but are more a political weapon.

 

[fuji]

Three things, your shining example of the US runs Gitmo.

No, you moron, Gitmo was run outside the US, and did not benefit from the democratic guarantees afforded there. That has been made abundantly clear to anyone capable of comprehending English.

Therefore, democratic countries do not guarantee good courts.

What sort of absurd and ludicrous viewpoint are you arguing now? Is it your assertion that dictatorships and authoritarian regimes have the best courts????? Moron. Complete moron.

Second, up until you found that Palestinians had petitioned the court to consider their cases, you backed the ICC, proving once again that you are morally bankrupt and trying to back Israel above the law and morality.

Where have I ever backed the ICC?????????????

Third, the UN is run democratically.

No, it is not. The overwhelming majority of votes at the UN are cast by dictatorships.

Second, what's that got to do with the price of chicken in Rome? The ICC is not part of the UN. It has its own broken system of voting which is, again, absolutely dominated by dictators and authoritarians.

Blatantly wrong.
That is not what he said.
Stop lying.

You like to say this but of course you can't say why. You just like to say it. Reality is you're unable to refute the point with logic, fact, or argument. So you just spew unsubstantiated propaganda.

Fact: Goldstone admits to not having the information necessary to determine why IDF targetted the police station. Admits.

Fact: The crime he accuses Israel of requires that information to determine guilt.

Fact: He accuses Israel of the crime anyway, instead of honestly asserting the truth--which is that he doesn't have enough information to know.

Yes it's true that he lacks the information because of Israel's refusal to co-operate, but that does not change the facts.

Those are facts. You may not like that they are facts. You may hate that your little puppet has been shown to be a propagandist. That's too bad for you. Sorry about that.

 

[fuji]

Well if you are going to use that basis then you automatically absolve the Palis as their rockets are so inaccurate they cannot really be "targeted" but are more a political weapon.

The palis have made enough statements about their belief that they have a right to attack Israeli civilians that it's not necessary. They've essentially admitted they do target civilians, especially with respect to settlers.

Flubby conveniently provided a link to an article in which Hamas admits to targetting settlers, justifying it by saying since they have guns they're an army. I guess they think the entire population of the USA is an army too.

 

[flubadub]

Gitmo was run outside the US, and did not benefit from the democratic guarantees afforded there.

Gitmo is run by the US. Can you not understand this? A democratic country is responsible for one of the worst kangaroo courts we've seen for a long time. Sure, Bush tried to skirt the rules to get away with it, but hey, he also admitted to torture.

The overwhelming majority of votes at the UN are cast by dictatorships.

Sure and the majority of votes in Israel are probably cast by illegally colonizing settlers, war criminals and those bent on ethnic cleansing.
As far as I know, majority ruled by votes counts as democracies, whether the voters are idiots or not.

The ICC is not part of the UN. It has its own broken system of voting which is, again, absolutely dominated by dictators and authoritarians.

See above.
sigh.

Fact: Goldstone admits to not having the information necessary to determine why IDF targetted the police station. Admits.

I asked for proof, you came back with fudged quotes.
You failed at backing this up.

Fact: The crime he accuses Israel of requires that information to determine guilt.

Exactly, that's why he recommended it be taken to court. Why can't you understand that he didn't determine guilt, he determined whether charges might be valid.
Are you so stupid you can't understand this?

Fact: He accuses Israel of the crime anyway, instead of honestly asserting the truth--which is that he doesn't have enough information to know.

False.
He looked into it, took Israel's claims into consideration and recommended that this be taken to the ICC.
Once again, you lied about this and couldn't back up your claims.
Failed, failed, failed.
And still trying to pass off this crap?

Would you please just shut up unless you can come up with something new or something verifiable?

 

[fuji]

Gitmo is run by the US. Can you not understand this?

Gitmo is not subject to the democratic guarantees of the US constitution. Can you not understand this? Even though it's run by a democracy, the fact that it was run beyond the reach of the US constitution was enough to make it a farce. And you seriously expect the ICC, run by dictatorships, to be credible???????????? It'll be even worse than Gitmo.

Sure and the majority of votes in Israel are probably cast by illegally colonizing settlers, war criminals and those bent on ethnic cleansing.

The founder of HRW disagrees with you.

I asked for proof, you came back with fudged quotes.
You failed at backing this up.

By refusing to cooperate with the Mission, the Government of Israel prevented it from meeting Israeli Government officials, but also from travelling to Israel to meet Israeli victims and to the West Bank to meet Palestinian Authority representatives and Palestinian victims.

That's Goldstone admitting he had no access to Israeli officials or information.

Exactly, that's why he recommended it be taken to court.

Why can't you understand that he didn't determine guilt, he determined whether charges might be valid.

False. Goldstone went further than that. Despite lacking the information necessary to do so, he asserted that Israel DID commit a crime. He did not say that Israel MIGHT have committed a crime and that further investigation was required to find out--THAT would have been honest. Goldstone lied.

I note that you do not go around citing the Goldstone report and claiming it says Israel MIGHT have committed crimes. You cite it and assert that it says Israel DID commit crimes. See the difference?

Goldstone asserts in the report that Israel DID commit a crime, even though he also admits to not having access to the evidence necessary to support that claim.

It's propaganda.

 

[flubadub]

Gitmo is not subject to the democratic guarantees of the US constitution. Even though it's run by a democracy, the fact that it was run beyond the reach of the US constitution was enough to make it a farce.

That's my point, its run by a democracy, and your own example shows that just being run by a democracy doesn't guarantee fair courts.
My point.

That's Goldstone admitting he had no access to Israeli officials or information.

No secret.
Here's what he says:

the Israel Government has presented no other basis on which a presumption can be made against the overall civilian nature of the police in Gaza. It is true that the police and the security forces created by Hamas in Gaza may have their origins in the Executive Force. However, while the Mission would not rule out the possibility that there might be individuals in the police force who retain their links to the armed groups, it believes that the assertion on the part of the Government of Israel that “an overwhelming majority of the police forces were also members of the Hamas military wing or activists of Hamas or other terrorist organizations”,280 appears to be an overstatement that has led to prejudicial presumptions against the nature of the police force that may not be justified.

and more.

There is no question that the approximately 100 policemen who died in the attacks on the stations visited by the Mission were deliberately targeted and killed by the Israeli armed forces.
424. The attacks on the police headquarters and five police stations visited by the Mission were carried out during the first minutes of the surprise air bombing campaign launched by the Israeli armed forces against Gaza shortly before 11.30 a.m. on 27 December.

and

426. The Mission could not verify the allegations of membership of armed groups of policemen. In half the cases, moreover, the allegations appear to be based merely on an equation of membership in Hamas (in itself alleged on the basis of unverifiable information) with membership in al-Qassam Brigades, which in the view of the Mission is not justified. Finally, even according to the study referred to by the Israeli Government, 34 policemen without any affiliation to Hamas or a Palestinian armed group were killed in the armed operations, the great majority of them in the bombardment of police stations on the first day of the military operations.

and

34. To examine whether the attacks against the police were compatible with the principle of distinction between civilian and military objects and persons, the Mission analysed the institutional development of the Gaza police since Hamas took complete control of Gaza in July 2007 and merged the Gaza police with the “Executive Force” it had created after its election victory. The Mission finds that, while a great number of the Gaza policemen were recruited among Hamas supporters or members of Palestinian armed groups, the Gaza police were a civilian law-enforcement agency. The Mission also concludes that the policemen killed on 27 December 2008 cannot be said to have been taking a direct part in hostilities and thus did not lose their civilian immunity from direct attack as civilians on this ground. The Mission accepts that there may be individual members of the Gaza police that were at the same time members of Palestinian armed groups and thus combatants. It concludes, however, that the attacks against the police facilities on the first day of the armed operations failed to strike an acceptable balance between the direct military advantage anticipated (i.e. the killing of those policemen who may have been members of Palestinian armed groups) and the loss of civilian life (i.e. the other policemen killed and members of the public who would inevitably have been present or in the vicinity), and therefore violated international humanitarian law.

and finally, and most importantly:

The Mission fully appreciates the importance of the presumption of innocence: the findings in the report do not subvert the operation of that principle. The findings do not attempt to identify the individuals responsible for the commission of offences nor do they pretend to reach the standard of proof applicable in criminal trials.

and finally from Fuji:

Goldstone went further than that. Despite lacking the information necessary to do so, he asserted that Israel DID commit a crime. He did not say that Israel MIGHT have committed a crime and that further investigation was required to find out--THAT would have been honest. Goldstone lied.

Prove that he lied.
Note that in order to prove your own propaganda, you must now prove that Goldstone consciously had decided he didn't have enough information to assess whether a crime had been committed, and consciously made a decision regardless.
And since you can never prove that, you'll have to admit that this claim that 'Goldstone lied' is full of crap.
Goldstone did his work and assessed that a crime had been committed.
I'll trust him over you any day.

 

[fuji]

That's my point, its run by a democracy, and your own example shows that just being run by a democracy doesn't guarantee fair courts.

Correct, you need strong constitutional guarantees. The ICC not only lacks those strong constitutional guarantees, it isn't even run by a democracy. It seems you are violently agreeing with me that courts like the ICC and Gitmo are dangerous and should be dissolved.

No secret.
Here's what he says:

Let's highlight this part: the Israel Government has presented no other basis on which a presumption can be made against the overall civilian nature of the police in Gaza

That's a nice phrase huh? This is just another way of saying he doesn't know.

In fact the Israeli Govt. has presented nothing at all, no information, of any kind, whatsoever, was made available to Goldstone. He's already admitted that elsewhere in the document.

Now had he stuck with this claim that he doesn't know he would have concluded that without further access to Israeli information it's impossible for the commission to determine what happened. He could deplore that. He could demand that Israel be required to share this information. That would be sensible.

That's not what he did though, right? Instead, he lied.

Here is another key bit, from your own quote:

the assertion on the part of the Government of Israel that “an overwhelming majority of the police forces were also members of the Hamas military wing or activists of Hamas or other terrorist organizations”,280 appears to be an overstatement

So why did Israel believe that the overwhelming majority were militia? Goldstone doesn't know why Israel thought that. He asserts that it appears to be wrong, in his view, but he does not know why Israel thought it was true.

And that's the crux. Even if it turned out that Israel's information was wrong there is no crime in attacking a target you legitimately believe to be the enemy. For example, when the Americans bombed the Chinese embassy in Kosovo--they thought wrongly that they were attacking a legitimate enemy target, no crime.

Plain fact is this:

Goldstone doesn't know why IDF believed they were militia, he admits he doesn't know, and that means it's impossible for him to claim a crime was committed.

Yet he makes the claim anyway--a prima facie lie.

 

[flubadub]

Correct, you need strong constitutional guarantees. The ICC not only lacks those strong constitutional guarantees, it isn't even run by a democracy. It seems you are violently agreeing with me that courts like the ICC and Gitmo are dangerous and should be dissolved.

The ICC has enough support behind it constitutionally. Certainly it is now proving less corrupt then American justice. Gitmo should be dissolved and Bush put on trial, and preferably at the ICC.

Now had he [Goldstone] stuck with this claim that he doesn't know he would have concluded that without further access to Israeli information it's impossible for the commission to determine what happened. He could deplore that. He could demand that Israel be required to share this information. That would be sensible.

That's not what he did though, right? Instead, he lied.

I request a citation here.
Show me the text where Goldstone lied and prove he lied.
Until you do, this argument is dead, and you a miserably failing propagandist.
I've asked you this a number of times, and you have yet to come up with anything.
And while you're at it, prove that Goldstone could not have found the same information that Israel hold's. Prove that its impossible for him to find this information.

 

[fuji]

The ICC has enough support behind it constitutionally.

WHAT??? ICC has nothing whatsoever backstopping it other than a bunch of dictators and authoritarians.

You must take a lot of drugs.

I request a citation here.

Already provided to you on this thread. What do you dispute here:

1. That Goldstone admits he had no access to Israeli intelligence

2. That knowledge of Israeli intelligence is required to know whether a crime was committed

3. That Goldstone asserted that a crime was committed

Which of those do you seriously dispute? They add up to #3 is a lie if you don't dispute either #1 or #2.

And while you're at it, prove that Goldstone could not have found the same information that Israel hold's.

You still don't get it. It doesn't matter what Goldstone found out about the police station, the only thing that matters is what IDF believed it knew at the time it attacked, and why.

Goldstone admits in his report that he had no access to that kind of information since Israel refused to co-operate with him.