Harper on Israel: Is the Prime Minister Mentally Sound?

[train]

How many threads do you guys need to cover to same old tired ground. I mean really. Time after time the same guys say the same things over and over again in a fujian orgy of wasted bandwidth.

How no one posts unless they haven't posted in the seemingly hundreds of threads on this topic. The one exception would be if you have changed your mind.

 

[slowpoke]

I don't think Harper gives a flying fuck about the lost council seat and I'm guessing most Canadians don't either.

Whether the average voter really gives a shit about us being on the Security Council is not really the point. The point is that Harper clearly made an effort to get that seat and failed. The average voter probably doesn't know exactly why the seat was important or the international implications of this failure but the fact that Harper tried to get it means it must have had some value. Once Harper's bid failed, it is natural to wonder WTF Harper was doing wrong on the international stage that caused this. We've almost always been accepted onto the security council so what is different now? These are the kinds of doubts that Harper would like to remove by pretending it was his unwavering support for Israel that got his ass spanked by those other anti-Semite countries. His accusation that the UN is anti-Semitic was another indication of this approach. If Harper can't be on the Security Council, he'll chip away at the credibility of the UN until he looks like a hero for NOT being invited.

 

[fuji]

Once Harper's bid failed, it is natural to wonder WTF Harper was doing wrong on the international stage that caused this.

He called a spade a spade, and the Arab League hated it. I don't think that's doing anything wrong, and the fact that speaking the truth can result in setbacks at the UN calls the UN into question more than anything else.

The UN, like it or not, is dominated by dictatorships. Democracies have vanishingly few votes at the General Assembly. The dictatorships aren't mostly anti-semitic, but the Arab League is, and basically buys the votes of other dictatorships in exchange for support on their issues--like making sure nobody criticized the military junta in Thailand for shooting protesters dead in the street, keeping Tibet off the international agenda on behalf of China, and so on.

We all know there are much worse things going on in the world than anything going on with Israel, in fact, much worse things being done by Israel's Arab neighbours, but the UN is never going to raise those issues.

There's really a pretty flawed structure there.

 

[flubadub]

Sure, its as flawed as democracy here is. Even assholes in Canada can get the vote, idiots, crackpots, you name it, we all get the vote. Harper tries to buy votes in Quebec by offering whatever he can, other politicians sell themselves for donations.
Just like the UN.
That's democracy for you.

 

[slowpoke]

He called a spade a spade, and the Arab League hated it. I don't think that's doing anything wrong, and the fact that speaking the truth can result in setbacks at the UN calls the UN into question more than anything else.

The UN, like it or not, is dominated by dictatorships. Democracies have vanishingly few votes at the General Assembly. The dictatorships aren't mostly anti-semitic, but the Arab League is, and basically buys the votes of other dictatorships in exchange for support on their issues--like making sure nobody criticized the military junta in Thailand for shooting protesters dead in the street, keeping Tibet off the international agenda on behalf of China, and so on.

We all know there are much worse things going on in the world than anything going on with Israel, in fact, much worse things being done by Israel's Arab neighbours, but the UN is never going to raise those issues.

There's really a pretty flawed structure there.

I was talking about the average Canadian wondering why Harpo got spanked by the UN. Those are the people who don't know a whole lot about the UN or its many flaws but who do know they saw Harper give that UN SC seat his best shot. They also know that he bounced off. Since Harper clearly wanted that seat, many Canadians will likely conclude that it was important and they may also wonder why Harpo failed. Let's not go off on yet another tirade about the UN itself. That's not the point. In my earlier post, the UN is significant only to the extent that its rejection of Harpo's bid would likely create doubts with the average Canadian about Harpo's abilities on the world stage. Since Harper needed an excuse to remove those doubts, he attacked the UN as anti-Semitic (which may or may not be true) and declared his unequivocal support for Israel which reinforces his excuse that the UN punished him because they're anti-Semitic and he's such a close friend of Israel's.

 

[basketcase]

Sure, its as flawed as democracy here is. Even assholes in Canada can get the vote, idiots, crackpots, you name it, we all get the vote. Harper tries to buy votes in Quebec by offering whatever he can, other politicians sell themselves for donations.
Just like the UN.
That's democracy for you.

So if the majority of Israelis voted to constitutionally make Israel a Jewish state, I would assume you would support it (or do you just support the democratic process when you like the result?)..

 

[landscaper]

I was talking about the average Canadian wondering why Harpo got spanked by the UN. Those are the people who don't know a whole lot about the UN or its many flaws but who do know they saw Harper give that UN SC seat his best shot. They also know that he bounced off. Since Harper clearly wanted that seat, many Canadians will likely conclude that it was important and they may also wonder why Harpo failed. Let's not go off on yet another tirade about the UN itself. That's not the point. In my earlier post, the UN is significant only to the extent that its rejection of Harpo's bid would likely create doubts with the average Canadian about Harpo's abilities on the world stage. Since Harper needed an excuse to remove those doubts, he attacked the UN as anti-Semitic (which may or may not be true) and declared his unequivocal support for Israel which reinforces his excuse that the UN punished him because they're anti-Semitic and he's such a close friend of Israel's.

The reason we did not get the seat is probably going to end up as a positive for the Harper govt. Refusing to be politically correct and not support Isreal in public while supporting them in private as has been done in the past is disengenuous at best two faced at worst.

Call a spade a spade, the bulk of the UNGA has dictatorships has governments. The Arab league has a major playing card in the Saudi oil fields special pricing deals or a kick back into a Caymen IS bank account are some of the simpler ways of arranging some votes , scatching each others back is also prevalent. It happens it is what happened in this case. If the Canadian general population actually cares enough about the issue to educate themselves the Tories could get a support kick. But given the general level of political awarness it probably won't happen

 

[escortsxxx]

Why we use a different term, the governor general can at anytime remove the prime minister or call an election if he or she loses confidence in the governement. In the case of a minority goverment ANY opposition leader could be made into the PM if they agree, and get the support of the majority of the house. Prime ministers have been removed or threatened with removal via this meathod. Harper tried to "spin" the Canadian system as anti democratic the last time this was mentioned.

 

[escortsxxx]

I was talking about the average Canadian wondering why Harpo got spanked by the UN. Those are the people who don't know a whole lot about the UN or its many flaws but who do know they saw Harper give that UN SC seat his best shot. They also know that he bounced off. Since Harper clearly wanted that seat, many Canadians will likely conclude that it was important and they may also wonder why Harpo failed. Let's not go off on yet another tirade about the UN itself. That's not the point. In my earlier post, the UN is significant only to the extent that its rejection of Harpo's bid would likely create doubts with the average Canadian about Harpo's abilities on the world stage. Since Harper needed an excuse to remove those doubts, he attacked the UN as anti-Semitic (which may or may not be true) and declared his unequivocal support for Israel which reinforces his excuse that the UN punished him because they're anti-Semitic and he's such a close friend of Israel's.

Which means that Harper himself is anti-semtic since he wanted with all his might to join the UN party. It be like being kicked out of the KKK and then jumping on the next day for being racist. No suprise there, Nixon top advisor was Jewish yet we have tapes of him making huge anti-semetic comments ... most conservatives have this pragmatic approach with power and workign with those they hate (In hapers case either working with anti-semites or the converse, or both or neither, it could all be spin after all)

 

[fuji]

Sure, its as flawed as democracy here is. Even assholes in Canada can get the vote, idiots, crackpots, you name it, we all get the vote. Harper tries to buy votes in Quebec by offering whatever he can, other politicians sell themselves for donations.
Just like the UN.
That's democracy for you.

Speaking of votes, why does the UN ban Israel from voting for things like UN HRC members? Why is Israel banned from having a seat on UN HRC or a rotating seat on UN SC or any other UN agency?

How is it that a repressive regime like Saudi Arabia can be promoted by the UN as a champion of women's rights, but Israel, where women enjoy great equality, is banned from even voting for the members, let alone running for a seat?

 

[Cobster]

No, I really shouldn't.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on this article as well as Harper's nutty thoughts.

 

[flubadub]

Speaking of votes, why does the UN ban Israel from voting for things like UN HRC members? Why is Israel banned from having a seat on UN HRC or a rotating seat on UN SC or any other UN agency?

How is it that a repressive regime like Saudi Arabia can be promoted by the UN as a champion of women's rights, but Israel, where women enjoy great equality, is banned from even voting for the members, let alone running for a seat?

Why should they give a vote to a country that won't respond to any resolutions?
Why give a vote to a country that keeps giving the UN the finger?

 

[fuji]

Why should they give a vote to a country that won't respond to any resolutions?
Why give a vote to a country that keeps giving the UN the finger?

So it's OK for the UN to pass all kinds of one-sided resolutions against Israel, and go on various pogroms against Jews, but it's not OK for Israel to have any vote or any say in any of this?

Meanwhile Saudi Arabia is put forward as a champion of women's rights.

 

[slowpoke]

Which means that Harper himself is anti-semtic since he wanted with all his might to join the UN party. It be like being kicked out of the KKK and then jumping on the next day for being racist. No suprise there, Nixon top advisor was Jewish yet we have tapes of him making huge anti-semetic comments ... most conservatives have this pragmatic approach with power and workign with those they hate (In hapers case either working with anti-semites or the converse, or both or neither, it could all be spin after all)

I think Harper is completely motivated by politics. He could also be a closet anti-Semite but I think the most likely explanation for his recent criticism of the UN is that he's politically posturing for Canadian voters. If he'd succeeded in getting his UN SC seat, I doubt that he'd be tilting at the UN's windmill today. That would only devalue his success as an international player in the eyes of Canadian voters. But losing his bid means that he looks like a leader who has somehow fallen into disfavour with the international community. So the best way to neutralize that perception is to make the whole thing look like he's just too loyal and uncompromising to be accepted by those nasty Jew haters at the UN. He used a similar line when the UAE tossed his ass out of Camp Mirage - he just couldn't compromise those lofty ideals by trading landing rights for continued use of that base. It is also possible that Harpo sees a spike in political donations from Canada's Jewish community every time he gives Israel an unconditional pass or looks the other way when they've been naughty. He also likes to pretend that the opposition parties are anti-Semitic because they don't unconditionally endorse Israel to the extent that he does. It's all about appearances. He's the ultimate political poser.

 

[toguy5252]

Why we use a different term, the governor general can at anytime remove the prime minister or call an election if he or she loses confidence in the governement. In the case of a minority goverment ANY opposition leader could be made into the PM if they agree, and get the support of the majority of the house. Prime ministers have been removed or threatened with removal via this meathod. Harper tried to "spin" the Canadian system as anti democratic the last time this was mentioned.

While you may be correct in theory the GG has not exercised that prerogative in100 years and if he/she did that would certainly spell the end of the monarchy in Canada.

 

[toguy5252]

I think Harper is completely motivated by politics. He could also be a closet anti-Semite but I think the most likely explanation for his recent criticism of the UN is that he's politically posturing for Canadian voters. If he'd succeeded in getting his UN SC seat, I doubt that he'd be tilting at the UN's windmill today. That would only devalue his success as an international player in the eyes of Canadian voters. But losing his bid means that he looks like a leader who has somehow fallen into disfavour with the international community. So the best way to neutralize this perception that he's not popular with the international community is to make the whole thing look like he's just too loyal and uncompromising to be accepted by those nasty Jew haters at the UN. He used a similar line when the UAE tossed his ass out of Camp Mirage - he just couldn't compromise those lofty ideals by trading landing rights for continued use of that base. It is also possible that the Harpo sees a spike in political donations from Canada's Jewish community every time he gives Israel an unconditional pass or looks the other way when they've been naughty. He also likes to pretend that the opposition parties are anti-Semitic because they don't unconditionally endorse Israel to the extent that he does. It's all about appearances. He's the ultimate political poser.

I believe that Harper is motivated by principle, however i also believe that his stand on Israel is only partially to blame for his loss. I believe that at least as important was his ineffectual stick handling of the file and although the outcome may not have been different in the en we will never know. he was apparently promised votes by a number of countries who did not follow through. In may cased I do not believe that their failure or refusal to vote for Canada was motivated bu his stand on Israel but i also believe there is no doubt that the Arab block vote which was was very important to the outcome.

 

[landscaper]

Why we use a different term, the governor general can at anytime remove the prime minister or call an election if he or she loses confidence in the governement. In the case of a minority goverment ANY opposition leader could be made into the PM if they agree, and get the support of the majority of the house. Prime ministers have been removed or threatened with removal via this meathod. Harper tried to "spin" the Canadian system as anti democratic the last time this was mentioned.

The government mnust lose the confidence of Parliment not the GG. Thomas Beckett sorted that out a few of centuries ago

 

[fuji]

While you may be correct in theory the GG has not exercised that prerogative in100 years and if he/she did that would certainly spell the end of the monarchy in Canada.

I'm not so sure. If that's not possible there are failure modes in Canadian democracy that get pretty bad, where election after election after election results in a Parliament where the party with plurality cannot govern. In such circumstances if an opposition leader could form a credible, stable government why not?

 

[toguy5252]

I'm not so sure. If that's not possible there are failure modes in Canadian democracy that get pretty bad, where election after election after election results in a Parliament where the party with plurality cannot govern. In such circumstances if an opposition leader could form a credible, stable government why not?

I theory yes. In fact not a chance. The GG will not act simply upon a request of another minority party leader to form a government. The office of GG today is largely symbolic. The first time the GG acts as if he/she has real authority from the the Crown would also be the last.

 

[slowpoke]

I believe that Harper is motivated by principle, however i also believe that his stand on Israel is only partially to blame for his loss. I believe that at least as important was his ineffectual stick handling of the file and although the outcome may not have been different in the en we will never know. he was apparently promised votes by a number of countries who did not follow through. In may cased I do not believe that their failure or refusal to vote for Canada was motivated bu his stand on Israel but i also believe there is no doubt that the Arab block vote which was was very important to the outcome.

There's no doubt that Harper talks a lot about his lofty principles but I don't think he walks the walk. His dirty tricks handbook on how to sabotage parliamentary committees was a prime example of his contempt for our democratic process and his lack of moral standards. His lack of transparency is another. He promised an open and accountable government but he's by far the most secretive PM ever. His blocking the takeover of Potash Corp was a classic example of pragmatic politics trumping his free trading ideals. He may have a few principles that he refuses to violate but the list is much shorter than it should be.

There could be any number of reasons why Harper failed to gain that SC seat at the UN but Camp Mirage, his over the top declarations of support for Israel and his abandonment of Africa would all have been factors.