Definition of torture
- Thread starter fmahovalich
- Start date
that is not even close to what i am saying. if you catch someone that you know has participated in terrorism and you know he has information that could save thousands of lives would you not do everything you could by any means needed to get that information ? i will use the kidnapping analogy once again, your kid is taken and you catch the guy that has her will you not do anything you have to do to get your child back or will you give him a nice warm meal and ask "pretty please"
cutting off a hand cuz you caught someone stealing is just plain stupid. extreme torture for petty crimes makes no sense and that is not even close to what i was suggesting.
although i have seen video's of men being held down by the victims family and the woman who was raped being allowed to cut off his dick before the cops showed up. i can't say i disagree with that.
No, I would not. Doing so would mean turning my back on everything I believe, on the country I love, on the system I support. People who do that are the worst form of human scum.
The moment you accept that sort of travesty the other side has already won. You've morally bankrupted yourself and acknowledged that you have no principles, nothing worth fighting for. I would not support any government or armed forces that engages in that sort of practice and would view any such organization as the enemy.
well people like you can sit around and say its not right and people like me can do what we do to make the world safe. people like you are disgusted by people like me but i promise you the world would be a lot worse off if you didn't have people doing things by any means neccesary.
Put it this way:
Torture is a crime against humanity, one that should be punished by either life in prison, or death.
If there's really 1000's of lives at stake and you feel you could save them by torturing someone, then your execution or you spending the rest of your natural life in a prison, ought to be a very small price to pay to save those lives.
The punishment being there ought to be sufficient to ensure that torture is not used for any less serious cases.
Those who torture other should be brought to justice and should forfeit the rest of their lives, either through life in prison, or through execution.
Torture is a crime against humanity, one that should be punished by either life in prison, or death.
If there's really 1000's of lives at stake and you feel you could save them by torturing someone, then your execution or you spending the rest of your natural life in a prison, ought to be a very small price to pay to save those lives.
The punishment being there ought to be sufficient to ensure that torture is not used for any less serious cases.
Those who torture other should be brought to justice and should forfeit the rest of their lives, either through life in prison, or through execution.
It makes the world less safe, you're so short sighted. It loses the moral high ground and costs us infinitely more than the minor benefit on that particular day. It loses the overall war for hearts and minds and gives our enemies grounds to fight us, enables them to recruit, and causes our allies to lose faith in us.
In my judgement as of today the largest threat to our national security is the propensity of our security forces to lose the moral high ground by engaging in short-sighted barbaric behavior.
I have one more thing to say about this: You are a coward and a traitor. I've already answered your question: I don't want safety at that price. I'm prepared to face danger for what I believe in. You, on the other hand, are willing to sell out everything this country stands for, you are a coward who is willing to betray our most fundamental and cherished principles, and for what? A few lives? A hell of a lot of people died fighting for what this country stands for. A hell of a lot more than a few thousand.
I'm prepared to face danger for what I believe in, you are not. You're the coward here. I'm prepared to stand up for what this country is all about, you are not, you want to sell this country out for a cheap and temporary gain. You're the traitor.
Those who engage in wholesale violation of human rights, who engage in torture, who work against what Canada stands for, are the enemy, must be brought to justice, and spend the rest of their natural days in jail.
think what you want but i know the deal. every side does it the good and the bad, it is a war thing. call me a traitor if you want but i have had a member of my family in every war from ww1 till now. my family has bled for this country many times over.
i also agree with the death penalty and i got no problem with gutting someone like a fish.
i also agree with the death penalty and i got no problem with gutting someone like a fish.
Ah Jonesy, Jonesy, Jonesy.......
Ground truth, my friend, is the reality of the situation on the ground in a conflict zone. Its what the 90 year old gents standing at attention around the Cenotaph yesterday lived through from 1939-1945. Its what Canadian volunteers are presently experiencing in Afghanistan. Its what politicians avoid and distort because it is very unpleasant. You clearly have no idea what ground truth in a conflict zone is, and you are a very very lucky man for that. No disrespect meant towards my elders, Oldie, but denying the brutality of the situation is either incredibly naive, stupid or callous towards those who face it. Deal with it afterwards??? Dealing with it afterwards means advising a mother, or a wife, or a child, that their son or husband or father got blown up (but his death could have been prevented)......have you ever had to do that, Oldie? If not, then again you are a very very lucky man. Know what? I haven't had to do it either and I'll do everything within my abilities to make sure I never do.....I fully intend that every man I'm responsible for becomes one of those 90 year olds standing around a cenotaph (in 50+ years). I plan to join them. I hope to see you there. Now Jonesy, if that makes me immoral, or a gangster, or doesn't fulfill your fantasy of what the reality of the ground truth should be, I'm perfectly at ease with that. Your feelings towards me arent much of a concern, nor are your feelings in general.
"The way of war is not paved with flowers." Think about what that means, Oldie. It means theres going to be hardship and sacrifice. You seem pretty quick to insist that others endure hardship and sacrifice to satisfy your personal sense of morality. Maybe you should use your morality to convince the extremists and fanatics to play by the established rules so that those who have volunteered to face them can beat them safely and "cleanly", so that you aren't tainted by the incredibly difficult choices that those guys often need to make. PS: source of the quote is Sirajuddin Haqqani. Do some homework before you start comparing any Canadian soldier to what Mr. Haqqani stands for......oh and another PS: Haqqani and his ilk are pretty quick to use the "we have moral superiority" argument in their fight with us.
I've had a very rough past few days so I'm crankier than usual. A nice steak dinner followed by watching "Babe" with the kids should help calm me down. Too bad thats not in the cards for me for the next few weeks(?). How's your week been, Jonesy?
Evidently not since you posted it twice. You must have interesting hobbyies. Probably just the boy in you.
Actually, I believe he was betrayed to the Hungarians who wished to annex Transylvania.
i clicked the post botton twice, no more no less. you don't want to know about the hobbies i had as a kid lol.
Okay Rid, you're next.
Torture has been around for a long, long time. Its use is still very very prevalent in many places around the world, despite everyones best intentions to end it. Torture is just another form of violence, and violence is part of the human condition.
We go to these countries that have some pretty brutal practices and expect that everyone will play by our rules. That is pretty frickin' wishful thinking on our part. There's not much we can do that shocks them when it comes to personal violence - thats the historical reality and it continues to this day. Do you honestly, truly think that A-stan was a peaceful, happy place before Oct 2001?? Maybe, like Oldjones, you should do some homework. Its been a brutal, brutal place for a long, long time. Ask Elphinstone, or Dr. Brydon.
What is the best "recruiting tool" for our enemies? It's got nothing to do with what you think it is, ie "torture". Harsh treatment is pretty commonplace over there. They aren't seeing anything they haven't seen before. Its drones. Those marvels of new technology - UAV's. Some dude in some cubicle far, far removed from the ground, using one of those to kill a HVT without putting your guy at risk, but every time this things are used you've got protests and riots and reciprocal actions for the next 3-4 days. Its that imbalance that causes more ill-will towards us over there than any use of torture. Only the western world demonstrates against the "torture", because "it lowers us to their level". Not too many demonstrations against drones happening in the US or Canada, are there?. Peshawar, Karachi, Kabul, where the "enemy" actively draws its recruits is where the protests against drones strikes happen.
But if you want to continue to believe that issues like "torture", that don't even make the news for 3000 miles of either side of the Durand Line, are a recruiting tool, be my guest.
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That was just the last move in a long list of people who wanted him gone. He was too nuts for anybody's good.
Geez Fuji, what happened?I guess that's why we're winning the war there
We actually had an intelligent exchange of ideas & information just the other day in the Politics forum. How many times have I explained this issue to you and it's still not getting through? Since its foolish to do the same thing over & over and expect a different outcome, I won't try to get into it with you again. Usually, I like to tease you, but this week I'm not in a playful mood and may take it too far......this board is the really the only place I've got to vent, so I don't want to get banned.
You're bright enough to understand the facts, and they've been explained to you several times now, but you're also totally free to beleive whatever you want to beleive.
Just checked it. You were right and I fucked up.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlad_the_Impaler#Third_reign_and_death
Yet you now appear to be working against this country and against the things your relatives fought for. You are undermining what Canada stands for. You are working against human rights and against the rule of law.
You've disgraced your relatives and become one of the enemy.
everyone on every side is doing it, just cuz you don't approve doesn't mean it is bad. get over your moral superiority complex and realize not only do these things happen but they have to happen. waterboarding is not that bad compared to what the guys over seas do. have you seen the torture vids that come out of there ? people having spikes shoved up their asses, drawn and quartered, pieces cut off. do you know why they do it over there ? they do it for fun. we do it to try and stop people from dying and the worst that happens with water boarding is the guy gets a little wet. get over yourself.
