Discreet Dolls

Should Canada withdraw from the United Nations?

fuji

Banned
Jan 31, 2005
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The UN is a deeply dysfunctional organization.

At the General Assembly level the policy of giving each nation a single vote regardless of whether or not it is democratic, and regardless of its population, or clout in the world, results in a horrific situation in which irrelevant little banana republics and their tin pot dictators buy and sell and trade their votes on any issue in order to stack every UN body with either corrupt officials or with partisans.

"If you give me your vote so my little 20,000 population dictatorship receives a juicy UN grant, then I'll elect you to XYZ body so you can use it as a propaganda organ to lash out at your enemies"

At the Security Council level things are only slightly better. There the organization is restricted to essentially credible nations, democratic or otherwise, which results in a higher level of debate and discussion. However the structure of the UN SC is such that it is a largely toothless talking club, which never really does manage to get around to solving problems. Its absolute paralysis in the face of nuclear arms proliferation, or the genocides in Sudan and Rwanda, fundamentally call into question whether it has any value at all--perhaps if the UN SC did not exist nations would have come together and actually solved a few of these issues, but in deferring to the UN SC on them, essentially guaranteed that NOTHING would be done.

Even strictly as a toothless talking club the UN SC serves little purpose, as these days there are much better talking clubs, like the G8, G20, and the regional clubs like ASEAN, NATO, or the SCO.

A few UN bodies do perform useful functions: The IMF, World Bank, and WHO come to mind, but these organizations are staffed primarily by technocrats and could be made to work with or without the United Nations.

So, should Canada lead by example and withdraw from the UN?
 

peteeey

Well-known member
Aug 18, 2001
1,732
161
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It isn't any more dysfunctional than Parliament. He should withdraw from there.
 

escortsxxx

Well-known member
Jul 15, 2004
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People forget the situation before the United Nations. If you want the internet, the post office or any international network to work across boades you need a UN style organiztion. Whatever you call the organzton every coutnry with different values will call it dysfuntional: the poor nations say tis dominated by the rich, the large populated nations 1000 million of Chinas vs 30 millilon Canadians find that they are being bullied vs the low population well educated nations: the muslum nations find it dominated by the heathen nations, the shinto nations find it dominated unjustly by the monetheist nations etc etc. But the alternative is a Bismark system of secret alliances and regional systems for things that should have international standards: which means constant and continous warfare as one mans nationalization is another mans piracy.

If the UN was democrati we would be dominate by Inida and China. The international langues would become Chinese and child safety laws would be thrown out and child labour would become a world standard. Do you realy think China should have the greatest voice on world standards? Also do you think the world should have one poltical system , one relgious, one currency and one economic policy to end dysfuntinallity? The UN allows competing and differing systems to coexist while keeping conflict down to a minimum: and extreme "war crimes" are punished - as long as the nation is not one of the g-20 of course.
 

flubadub

Banned
Aug 18, 2009
2,651
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Nicely put, escortxxx.

The UN isn't perfect, but then neither is any one country. Instead of withdrawing we should be working to make it stronger, give it more teeth. Make every country sign onto the ICC, enlarge the blue helmets, make resolutions carry more weight. Canada used to back the UN way more then it does now, and we are still riding on the goodwill that generated. Harper has just found out that Bush's policies are still unpopular.
 

K Douglas

Half Man Half Amazing
Jan 5, 2005
27,062
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The UN is a farce. I believe wholeheartedly (and have been singing this same tune for a number of years now) that the likes of US and Canada should withdraw from the UN and form a new alliance or expand NATO beyond a defence treaty.
 

fuji

Banned
Jan 31, 2005
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If you want the internet, the post office or any international network to work across boades you need a UN style organiztion.
I disagree, and the UN had nothing to do with any of your examples. In fact the designed-by-committee global network plan failed and was replaced by the internet, which grew spontaneously out of a handful of independent research laboratories that were unaffiliated with any global planning. The centrally planned and mandated network was overly complex, counter-intuitive, and hard to manage versus the internet which was simple, straight forward, and worked. The postal system also was set up and standardized by protocols agreed on independent of the UN.
 

fuji

Banned
Jan 31, 2005
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Nicely put, escortxxx.

The UN isn't perfect, but then neither is any one country. Instead of withdrawing we should be working to make it stronger, give it more teeth. Make every country sign onto the ICC, enlarge the blue helmets, make resolutions carry more weight. Canada used to back the UN way more then it does now, and we are still riding on the goodwill that generated. Harper has just found out that Bush's policies are still unpopular.
Given that the UN is dominated by authoritarian, undemocratic regimes you are essentially demanding that we cede our sovereignty to people who are unelected dictators.

I prefer democracy.
 

fuji

Banned
Jan 31, 2005
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Put another way: Who elected Robert Mugabe, Gen. Than Shwe, Ayatollah Khameini, Omar al-Bashir, Kim Jong Il, Idriss Déby, Momar Qaddafi, King Abdullah al Saud, Gurbanguly Berdymukhammedov, Islam Karimov, Lt. Gen. Sayasone, Malam Bacai Sanhá, Sékouba Konaté, Bashar al-Assad, Teodoro Obiang, Faure Gnassingbé, Ismail Omar Guelleh, Isaias Afewerki, Emomalii Rahmon, Nguyễn Minh Triết, Khalifa bin Zayed Al Nahyan, Sheikh Al Thani, Denis Sassou Nguesso, Ali Abdullah Saleh, etc.?

Why should Canada or any other democratic nation cede any sovereignty whatsoever to men like that?
 

danmand

Well-known member
Nov 28, 2003
46,477
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Was the UN critical of Israel again?
 

blackrock13

Banned
Jun 6, 2009
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Put another way: Who elected Robert Mugabe, Gen. Than Shwe, Ayatollah Khameini, Omar al-Bashir, Kim Jong Il, Idriss Déby, Momar Qaddafi, King Abdullah al Saud, Gurbanguly Berdymukhammedov, Islam Karimov, Lt. Gen. Sayasone, Malam Bacai Sanhá, Sékouba Konaté, Bashar al-Assad, Teodoro Obiang, Faure Gnassingbé, Ismail Omar Guelleh, Isaias Afewerki, Emomalii Rahmon, Nguyễn Minh Triết, Khalifa bin Zayed Al Nahyan, Sheikh Al Thani, Denis Sassou Nguesso, Ali Abdullah Saleh, etc.?

Why should Canada or any other democratic nation cede any sovereignty whatsoever to men like that?
Who has said anything about ceding sovereignty to anybody? Fuji you're at it again.
 

danmand

Well-known member
Nov 28, 2003
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Who has said anything about ceding sovereignty to anybody? Fuji you're at it again.
he is off his rocker again. or is it medications, he is off?
 

onthebottom

Never Been Justly Banned
Jan 10, 2002
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I don't know but I think the US should, or at least kick them out of NYC.

OTB
 

Tangwhich

New member
Jan 26, 2004
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The UN is a massive waste of money. It's a nice theory but in realty doesn't work at all. I'm with K Douglas on this..
 

Tangwhich

New member
Jan 26, 2004
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Terrific. but again what would you put in it's place or would you just have everyone just call collect?
Since there's no way to really enforce anything, I would just spend (save) that money domestically and go without. Or as K Douglas suggested, expand relationships within organizations like NATO.
 

blackrock13

Banned
Jun 6, 2009
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Since there's no way to really enforce anything, I would just spend (save) that money domestically and go without. Or as K Douglas suggested, expand relationships within organizations like NATO.
So we have a bunch of Warsaw Pact, Nato, Apecs, Opecs, the Arab League, the Francphonie, and whatever else and keep the collect calls down to a minimum. Having team building weekends in the Alps or Machu Picchu might be the ticket, but I doubt it. There has to be some place where all nation have to be able to meet, however imperfect you may think it is right now.

I'm not sure enforcement was the paramount reason for the formation of the UN. so why you feel it's failure is founded on not being able to enforce something.
 

Tangwhich

New member
Jan 26, 2004
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So we have a bunch of Warsaw Pact, Nato, Apecs, Opecs, the Arab League, the Francphonie, and whatever else and keep the collect calls down to a minimum. Having team building weekends in the Alps or Machu Picchu might be the ticket, but I doubt it. There has to be some place where all nation have to be able to meet, however imperfect you may think it is right now.

I'm not sure enforcement was the paramount reason for the formation of the UN. so why you feel it's failure is founded on not being able to enforce something.
Technology has advanced far enough that we can have meetings without leaving our office or home. That building down in NY doesn't really need to be there anymore.
As for enforcement, when countries don't want to do something (or do) they can and often do as they please regardless of what the UN says. Without any sort of defined consequences that all members are obligated to go along with it's pretty much a waste of energy even trying.
 

nottyboi

Well-known member
May 14, 2008
22,447
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No one would care if Canada withdrew from the UN, it would be like Sweden leaving...the US would probably be upset as they would lose a lapdog. Besides, we can't withdraw without their permissions anyway. The UN has averted many wars and is actually very important. It is flawed, but anyone that says it irrelevant needs to get their heads out of their ass.
 
Toronto Escorts