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Government prepares to hand Ipperwash park over to the natives

gryfin

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http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/...io-closer-to-handing-over-ipperwash-park?bn=1

"More than 14 years after native protester Dudley George was killed by police during a confrontation over disputed land, Ontario is poised to take the final legislative step in relinquishing control of Ipperwash Provincial Park"
Now if we can only get Israel to return stolen land back to the Palestinians. But, this is a proof positive that it can be done. You have to admit, it's much easier in an enlightened society not burdened by primitive notions of religious supremacy and purity.
 

toguy5252

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Now if we can only get Israel to return stolen land back to the Palestinians. But, this is a proof positive that it can be done. You have to admit, it's much easier in an enlightened society not burdened by primitive notions of religious supremacy and purity.
I am shocked. He even manages to relate a domestic issue involving our First Nations to Israel. You are truly too much.
 

Bif_Butkiss

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Now if we can only get Israel to return stolen land back to the Palestinians. But, this is a proof positive that it can be done. You have to admit, it's much easier in an enlightened society not burdened by primitive notions of religious supremacy and purity.
ENLIGHTENED SOCIETY ?????..... Are we talking about the same 'society' that forces it's native peoples (in order to live as who WE are) to live in segregated communities (ie; reservations)? The same society that continually disregards the treaties (contracts) that it has with it's native peoples? The same society that has 'whitewashed' the genocide of reportedly thousands of native children in the residential school system with no one being held accountable? (There are people in the former Yugoslavia that are spending the rest of their life in jail for less and all we get is an apology)
Are we talking about the same ENLIGHTENED SOCIETY or are you DREAMING of something else?
 

slowpoke

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Maybe he's talking about the "enlightened society" that feels it's ok to evict someone based solely on their bloodline. :cool:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/non-natives-evicted-from-mohawk-reserve/article1468533/
That Kahnawake reserve has a long history of extreme militancy but those evictions are fairly isolated events. I don't think you can extend the Kahnawake reserve's behaviour to Canada's aboriginal societies in general. If all aboriginal societies made a habit of evicting non-natives to preserve their native bloodlines, I'm sure we would have heard about it long before now. In the grand scheme of things, white Canada has much more racism, exploitation and discrimination against native societies to answer for.
 

gryfin

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ENLIGHTENED SOCIETY ?????..... Are we talking about the same 'society' that forces it's native peoples (in order to live as who WE are) to live in segregated communities (ie; reservations)? The same society that continually disregards the treaties (contracts) that it has with it's native peoples? The same society that has 'whitewashed' the genocide of reportedly thousands of native children in the residential school system with no one being held accountable? (There are people in the former Yugoslavia that are spending the rest of their life in jail for less and all we get is an apology)
Are we talking about the same ENLIGHTENED SOCIETY or are you DREAMING of something else?
While I agree with most of your post, there are some errors. First Nation members are not forced to live in reservations.
More importantly, the comparison was with the current situation in Israel and the Occupied Territories. And unless you have not read a newspaper in the past few years, there are a number of things are taking place there that are not common here. Let's use Cast Lead as an example. Or maybe the blockade of Gaza. Or maybe the Israeli death squads.
 

toguy5252

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While I agree with most of your post, there are some errors. First Nation members are not forced to live in reservations.
More importantly, the comparison was with the current situation in Israel and the Occupied Territories. And unless you have not read a newspaper in the past few years, there are a number of things are taking place there that are not common here. Let's use Cast Lead as an example. Or maybe the blockade of Gaza. Or maybe the Israeli death squads.
And how prey tell is Israel forcing the Palestinians to live in Gaza and/or the West Bank. Cast Lead. Hmmm. Perhaps Hamas should then think twice about continuing to assault Israeli population centers with rockets. Did Hamas or anyone else, perhaps with the exception of you, think that Israel would simply continue to suffer the onslaught of the rockets, day after day, week after week, month after month without responding.

And please remind me again this has what to do with the situation of the First Nations?
 

gryfin

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And how prey tell is Israel forcing the Palestinians to live in Gaza and/or the West Bank. Cast Lead. Hmmm. Perhaps Hamas should then think twice about continuing to assault Israeli population centers with rockets. Did Hamas or anyone else, perhaps with the exception of you, think that Israel would simply continue to suffer the onslaught of the rockets, day after day, week after week, month after month without responding.

And please remind me again this has what to do with the situation of the First Nations?
Giving back land that was stolen.
 

Bif_Butkiss

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Canada needs to solve (or at least try to solve) it's own problems first before they go pointing fingers at other countries.

The homeless, child poverty and the 3rd world conditions that my people in the north have to live in are only a few topics that come to mind.
 

Bif_Butkiss

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You missed the part where our national socialist friend said to "live as who we are". Really it is the same demand of the British National Party, France's National Front or the Freedom Party of Austria. Except when whites say it, it is racist. Funny thing is, they have full rights to live anywhere, the rest of us dont.

You don't seem to understand, when natives choose to live off rez. we loose most of the treaty rights granted to us. We should be able to live anywhere we want (in Canada) with all the rights that were granted us, as a people, in the treaties and not just in those segregated communities.
Most of the rights that were guaranteed to us in the treaties (contracts) have been slowly "guidelined" away from us by numerous governments with neither native consultation or consideration.
You can't unilaterally change a contract without prior re-negotiation with all affected parties. That isn't legal in any court that I'm aware of. I guess Canada forgot about that!? But for us to take those 'issues' to your court is like trying to solve some of our 200 year old land claims.
It's like me offering to buy your house for 200 grand and then showing up with a buck 98 saying sorry this is all that I have and you have to move anyways. You wouldn't stand for it.....Why should we?
 

MarkII

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There is no doubt that Ipperwash was native land. I used to love going to that park. Just about anywhere you dug you could find artifacts. I used to find arrow heads on the beach all the time.

I was truly saddened by what the rebellious bunch did to the park during the takeover. Had they thought it through properly, they were sitting on a gold mine. The park was pristine and they'd be still taking bookings to this day for campers or hikers. Instead all the buildings were burnt to the ground and trails over ran by cars and 4x4's.

I've never had any problems with returning the land to the natives, but I was really disheartened to see what they did with it.
 

Bif_Butkiss

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There is no doubt that Ipperwash was native land. I used to love going to that park. Just about anywhere you dug you could find artifacts. I used to find arrow heads on the beach all the time.

I was truly saddened by what the rebellious bunch did to the park during the takeover. Had they thought it through properly, they were sitting on a gold mine. The park was pristine and they'd be still taking bookings to this day for campers or hikers. Instead all the buildings were burnt to the ground and trails over ran by cars and 4x4's.

I've never had any problems with returning the land to the natives, but I was really disheartened to see what they did with it.
I've never been to Ipperwash but from 'other' past experiences I know that it would be nearly financially unfeasable for someone other than the government to run a 'provincial' style park. With insurance, grounds maintenance and hourly paid personel, etc. the fees that we would have to charge to use the park would only drive 'business' away.
As far as burning the buildings down I equate that to 'cleansing' the land of proof of non native habitation. The trails should have been left to grow over by themselves instead of harming them with the use of cars and trucks. OR perhaps the native 'protesters' were trying to make the park undesirable for others to visit before they were made aware that the land would rightly be given back to them.
 

MarkII

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[/b]


As was I but for me it was totally understandable. My family purchased land and built a lake front cottage on the land between Ipperwash Provincial Park and the Kettle Point Reservation. We made this purchase directly from The Kettle Point Band but in the 70's the purchase of this land by non natives in the area was lumped into the dispute over the Army base that was next door to Ipperwash Provincial Park. The center of the dispute between my family and the Kettle Point Band was that they felt they were forced to sell at depressed prices because of the poverty of the Band, in fact of all the the land left to the Band, Kettle Point itself had to be the most bleak.

Anyways despite a great deal of harassment, OPP involvement we stuck it out until my parents passed in the late 80's were we ended up selling the land back to the Kettle Point Band. It was interesting that while we thought the fair thing to do was to sell it back to the Band they kept insisting on paying us only .10 on the dollar of our original purchase price even though we could have kept a substantial price selling outside the community. The amount of land we had was substantial and we attracted a bid from a London developer and when we brought that bid to their attention the harassment stepped up to unbelievable levels. What we finally did was arbitrate this with the Government and settled on a price of .80 of the developers bid with the Government picking up .60 of the price.

The whole point of what I'm saying here is that there was a great deal of militant attitude brought on by not only on bad business decisions by the Band's past leadership but out and out exploitation by the past Provincial/Federal Governments. There was absolutely no reason for the Federal Government to retain the land for the Army base and Park after WW2 and it was very short sighted by the Band not to sign long term leases on the land instead of selling at depressed prices the land in between, in fact I recall my father commenting that he brought that up with the Band negotiator when he purchased the land.

Years of bad decisions, out and out exploitation, poor schools and a high level of poverty led to years of militancy from the younger members of the Band. As a result I wasn't all that surprised at the end results.


kf

Your quite right about the government not handing the land back to Kettle Point. I recall people finding shell casings etc and every so often a live round.

The situation should have been handled in much more civilized manner. I still think with the Governments help the park could have kept running, perhaps as a Kettle Point Band heritage site. Walking tours, historical info etc. it could have been so much more than what it is now.
 

Bif_Butkiss

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Maybe he's talking about the "enlightened society" that feels it's ok to evict someone based solely on their bloodline. :cool:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/non-natives-evicted-from-mohawk-reserve/article1468533/
Weren't we as a people 'evicted' off of our territorial land and forced to live in reservations by your people decades and maybe hundreds of years ago? And just what was THAT eviction based on?
I think before you go pointing your finger at us maybe you should try looking in a mirror first.
 
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