Hello all , need some advice regarding a problem with my car , long story short , mechanic wants 900.00 to release my car and the problem is still there, there was a noise in the front of motor, was told it was timing chain , sounded beleivable , noise is still there, also this guy has 40 years exp, working on this type of cars, he lost my key , froze my battery , also when looking at the old parts the old timing chain looks good to me, should I just eat the loss or take him to court , wondering what my odds are at winning, thanks in advance.
Mechanic Rip Off.
- Thread starter RickC
- Start date
well, your story is kind of vague:
How does one freeze a battery? If there's acid in the battery, and it's not absolute zero in termp, that puppy ain't gonna freeze. If it's in Toronto, we haven't gotten cold enough to freeze a battery.
Timing Chain looking fine: so, did you measure it? They do stretch/wear over time. How many K's are on your car? Did you compare it side by side to the new one?
Noises are hard to diagnose. There's hundreds of things it could be. Was your car also running rough? (if the timing was off it might affect your performance, fuel economy etc).
Put it another way: you go into the hospital feeling crappy. The doctors do blood tests, nothing wrong. X rays, nothing shows up, Urine test: nothing wrong. Poop snoop: nothing wrong. Pelvic Exam: nothing wrong. Do they get paid for all those tests? Darn right they do. Same as a mechanic: it's your car, turns out what he thought it was it wasn't, but you DID and DO have a new timing chain so you're good for another 100,000 k.
Pay him.
How does one freeze a battery? If there's acid in the battery, and it's not absolute zero in termp, that puppy ain't gonna freeze. If it's in Toronto, we haven't gotten cold enough to freeze a battery.
Timing Chain looking fine: so, did you measure it? They do stretch/wear over time. How many K's are on your car? Did you compare it side by side to the new one?
Noises are hard to diagnose. There's hundreds of things it could be. Was your car also running rough? (if the timing was off it might affect your performance, fuel economy etc).
Put it another way: you go into the hospital feeling crappy. The doctors do blood tests, nothing wrong. X rays, nothing shows up, Urine test: nothing wrong. Poop snoop: nothing wrong. Pelvic Exam: nothing wrong. Do they get paid for all those tests? Darn right they do. Same as a mechanic: it's your car, turns out what he thought it was it wasn't, but you DID and DO have a new timing chain so you're good for another 100,000 k.
Pay him.
You cannot possibly tell whether a timing chain "looks good" Unless you have the equipment to measure the length of the chain, and then test the metal, you cannot tell whether or not it is still acceptable.
Some timing chains actually do need replacing (Even though it's a timing chain and not a timing belt. I assume you are correct when you call it a "chain" and it's not actually a timing belt)
If he changed your timing chain, then pay him for that work. Deduct the cost of the key and be out the door. If the battery froze while you were arguing about paying him or not, it's your problem. If it froze (and presumably died) while in his care - it's his problem.
As to the noise in the front end - take it to a dealer and have them fix it.
Some timing chains actually do need replacing (Even though it's a timing chain and not a timing belt. I assume you are correct when you call it a "chain" and it's not actually a timing belt)
If he changed your timing chain, then pay him for that work. Deduct the cost of the key and be out the door. If the battery froze while you were arguing about paying him or not, it's your problem. If it froze (and presumably died) while in his care - it's his problem.
As to the noise in the front end - take it to a dealer and have them fix it.
if the work was authoirized you have to pay him for it to get the car back, damage to thevehical while in their care is their problem not yours. That the actual problem is still their is an issue, keep the parts ,( you may have to pay the core charge on any returnable parts although it is unlikly with a timeing chain) Call one of the consumers groups George Ine appears on cable pulse every week, they will be able to tell you if they have any reports about the mechanic, time in the business is no guarentee. If the noise persists they will also be able to give you the name of a mechanic they trust to diagnose the problem . At that point you will at least know what is going on and be able to take steps. Make sure that you get your car out as soon as possible or teh storage fees will eat you alive.
2.7 intrepid right?
If you authorized it, your screwed. Pay, get it back, take it somewhere GOOD for a look see whats still/is wrong, then you'll have to go to small claims.
If you authorized it, your screwed. Pay, get it back, take it somewhere GOOD for a look see whats still/is wrong, then you'll have to go to small claims.Battery froze due to no charge , chain is good took it M/B shop, took it to another mech this morning , he says tim ing chain was not done properly , will know for sure this evening, hard to eat almost 1k when problem is still the same as before ,and did not install my fan for rad , also mech have to warranty there work for 3 months or 5 k , so Tboy your wrong when you compare a doctgor to a mech ,thanks to all , will have a update tonight or tomorrow for all who care
As for damage while in the mechanic's possession: a flat battery is NOT damage. Heck, if that was the case then whenever you needed a new battery you could simply drive into any shop for an oil change and not pick up the car for a couple of days. Then when you do pick it up, OH you damaged my battery! You pay for a new one.
If the battery was NFG when he went in, it will be NFG when he comes out unless he orders a new one.
The ONLY way the OP shouldn't have to pay for the repair is if the mechanic didn't actually replace the timing chain. Other than that? There's no reason not to.
As I stated, just because during the investigation of this "noise" the repair recommended isn't the culprit, doesn't mean the mechanic should foot the bill for the new timing chain.
Put it another way: you own a house, find a water stain on your ceiling, call over a contractor to find it and fix it. He finds a suspect pipe, repairs it. doesn't see any other source. A week later you find another water stain, he comes back, finds another suspect pipe that was hidden behind a stud and under insulation, fixes it. A week later you have another water stain, he comes back, finds a leaky boot over a vent stack, fixes it.
Do you only pay for the one fix or all of them? Cuz if you have more than one leaky pipe then even if only one of them is making the stain, they all should be fixed. Just like the timing chain: if it is worn and making noise, it should be fixed even if it isn't the particular problem.
BTW: I come from a family of mechanics and my brother worked at a dealership. He worked 40 hrs on a brand new car with less than 1,000 k on it for a rattle. They tried everything. Then eventually found a nut under one of the rocker panels. (back when there were rocker panels). Ford covered his entire week under warranty.
If the battery was NFG when he went in, it will be NFG when he comes out unless he orders a new one.
The ONLY way the OP shouldn't have to pay for the repair is if the mechanic didn't actually replace the timing chain. Other than that? There's no reason not to.
As I stated, just because during the investigation of this "noise" the repair recommended isn't the culprit, doesn't mean the mechanic should foot the bill for the new timing chain.
Put it another way: you own a house, find a water stain on your ceiling, call over a contractor to find it and fix it. He finds a suspect pipe, repairs it. doesn't see any other source. A week later you find another water stain, he comes back, finds another suspect pipe that was hidden behind a stud and under insulation, fixes it. A week later you have another water stain, he comes back, finds a leaky boot over a vent stack, fixes it.
Do you only pay for the one fix or all of them? Cuz if you have more than one leaky pipe then even if only one of them is making the stain, they all should be fixed. Just like the timing chain: if it is worn and making noise, it should be fixed even if it isn't the particular problem.
BTW: I come from a family of mechanics and my brother worked at a dealership. He worked 40 hrs on a brand new car with less than 1,000 k on it for a rattle. They tried everything. Then eventually found a nut under one of the rocker panels. (back when there were rocker panels). Ford covered his entire week under warranty.
As for the freezing point:
If sulfuric acid freezes at the following concentrations at the following temps, you can extrapolate that at 33% concentration (approx for a lead acid battery):
100% = 3C
93% = -32C
78% = -38C
65% = -64C
33% = -90C (or thereabouts)
I dunno about the OP, but we haven't gotten that cold around here since the last ice age lol (since the coldest temp ever recorded in toronto was -33 in 1859....)
If sulfuric acid freezes at the following concentrations at the following temps, you can extrapolate that at 33% concentration (approx for a lead acid battery):
100% = 3C
93% = -32C
78% = -38C
65% = -64C
33% = -90C (or thereabouts)
I dunno about the OP, but we haven't gotten that cold around here since the last ice age lol (since the coldest temp ever recorded in toronto was -33 in 1859....)
batteries will freeze when the charge in them gets low, it used to be more common when people added water to their batteries( remember those days?) but they will freeze what caused it who knows . As far as the original repair gors if you authorized the work you do have to pay for it to get the car back. Your option after the fact is to sue the guy because he diagnosed it wrong, the only way you don't pay for the repair is if you did not authorize it, Like my sisters favorite you drop the car off for an oil change and the guy " notices " that the rotors or worn out and does acomplete brake job and then forgets to save the parts. That one took the cops but teh sister got the car back after paying for the oil change , unfortunatly for the thief i mean mechanic he did not keep the old parts so he got to donate the ones he put on the car at his cost. The detective was most insistant
From my experiences uin similar dealings, APA sucks canal water. They will do diddly squat. Just my 2-cents' worth.
tboy;
According to your truncated data, the suphuric acid at 0 % will be well below -100 C. That is impossible, because at 0 % concentration it is pure water and must freeze at 0 C. Here is a comprehensive listing of freezing points and concentrations, as well as other thermodynamic data.
http://www.resistoflex.com/sulfuric_graphs.htm
You will see that the freezing point does wierd things in the intermediate concentrations. At 83 to 86 %, teh freezing point o fteh solution is around 44 F, or about +6.7 C. This is because of solvation effects and the colligative properties of polar solutions such as an electrolyte like sulphuric acid. So, what did the mechanic do to the battery to freeze it? Did he top up the acid cocentration too high?
hey I just cut and pasted from another site, if you have a problem with the data, take it up with them!
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_freezing_point_of_sulfuric_acid
(but the problem with YOUR answer is that at 0% concentration I bet the freezing point jumps up to 0 C.....because, as you say, it is pure water or just water.....that's if it is mixed with water in the first place....)
BTW: my data may be suspect but I least I spelled and typed it coherently lol)
Well , the battery froze when he lost the key for a few weeks , ownership was iin the car ,the battery has fuck all to do with this , but combined with the M/b symbol missing the rad fan not installed and the same noise as when I brought it there does not seem fair I got a quote for 9 to 12 hundred dollars , a quote cannot exceed more then 10 % of originaL estimate , my point is why do I get to eat the money when the problem is still there and what about my 3 month or 5 k warranty , and who gives a shit about your family being mechanics Tboy , hardly makes you a arm chair mechanic .
You are now adding information. And more information again in the post above.
I'm guessing that English isn't your first language because it's very difficult to know just what the hell you're saying. If English is your first language - WTF?
I repeat, you cannot tell whether or not the timing chain is any good just by looking at it. If the timing chain was changed, then pay the man. Whether or not the problem is still there is not relevant. You authorized the changing of the timing chain. Now you owe for that.
Where exactly is the fan?
RickC, some general thoughts: you would need to have a second mechanic who is willing to testify in court that any competent mechanic would have known that the problem was not the timing chain. What tradesmen are willing to say to you, and what they are willing to testify to under oath are not infrequently different. Further, in general there has to be negligence e.g. any compentent person would have known not to replace the brake pads. Not, he looked the brake pads seemed bad, he replaced then but the wheels still squeek.
In Conclusion: have a conversation with the Better Buisness Bureau, Call NPRs Car Talk (they'd probably love to talk to someone from Toronto) www.cartalk.com, if the aforementioned agree that you've been screwed see a lawyer for a consultation.
In Conclusion: have a conversation with the Better Buisness Bureau, Call NPRs Car Talk (they'd probably love to talk to someone from Toronto) www.cartalk.com, if the aforementioned agree that you've been screwed see a lawyer for a consultation.
Something here doesn't make sense, he gave you a quotation of $900 to $1,200 to do the work - you agreed, he is charging you $900.
Having taken a dealership to court over a transmission problem, fraud and theft... I know that it took me nearly 5 years to reach a resolution and I only recovered half my losses.
You can make the process work, and recover some remedy, but not always and expect it to take a LONG time.
The best case scenario is if they get a lawyer - and you DON'T - because you can make them spend money while you're not.
You can make the process work, and recover some remedy, but not always and expect it to take a LONG time.
The best case scenario is if they get a lawyer - and you DON'T - because you can make them spend money while you're not.
Yeah but yeah but yeah but but but he's wrong....the mechanic's wrong!! buh buh buh.....
What warranty? and once again, we haven't had temps low enough to freeze the fricken battery and what does the battery have to do with it? YOU BROUGHT IT UP DIPSTICK!!!!
Ownership was in the car? So fricken what?
He lost the key for a few weeks? What you dont' have another? You gave someone else the ONLY key on the planet to the car? Are you nuts? (nuts in having only one key then even more nuts for giving it to someone)
What the hell is an M/b symbol?
And the rad fan not installed? Was it installed before you took it in? (he might have left it off to prevent you from taking your car without paying in the odd case you have another key lol as if...lol)
