Pickering Angels

Income v. Consumption taxes

What is the best tax setup?

  • Both income and consumption taxes.

    Votes: 23 34.8%
  • Only income tax.

    Votes: 7 10.6%
  • Only consumption taxes.

    Votes: 36 54.5%

  • Total voters
    66

wangbang

Camel Toad
Nov 19, 2007
3,161
5
38
Gettin' Licked
Flat tax is a political nightmare. Could a flat tax work, sure. However everyone in the lower and middle income areas would scream about how it favors the rich. I believe a flat tax would be political suicide for the party that brings it into being.

Small businesses create jobs yet whenever corporate taxes get lowered the poor and middle class don't get it and cry about the rich. Most small business owners are far from rich.

The average person in the street never gets the economic ramifications of most tax matters.
 

Peter123

New member
Apr 28, 2005
566
2
0
I think you really do need both--the rate of tax of a consumption only tax would be very high--leading to more underground and also cross border shopping (even just cross provincial if one province tried it)...

I think focus right now should be on consumption tax--the Cons basically threw away revenue that would be very valuable right now with their massive deficit

Flat tax does not equal fair tax to me..

Poll forgot property tax (which is a really unfair tax--although I like it (high income + low house value)
 

landscaper

New member
Feb 28, 2007
5,752
0
0
I think you really do need both--the rate of tax of a consumption only tax would be very high--leading to more underground and also cross border shopping (even just cross provincial if one province tried it)...

I think focus right now should be on consumption tax--the Cons basically threw away revenue that would be very valuable right now with their massive deficit

Flat tax does not equal fair tax to me..

Poll forgot property tax (which is a really unfair tax--although I like it (high income + low house value)
This always becomes hte question with a flat tax, people think it is unfair because high income people would in theory pay less, as opposed to the concept of you can afford more hand it over. A flat tax of somewhere between 15 and 20% should provide all the funds a government would require. And the higher income earners would still pay more based on teh amount they earn, just not an accelerated grab
 

Peter123

New member
Apr 28, 2005
566
2
0
I get the argument just don't agree with it

the 4,000 to the 20,000 earner is a harder tax to bear than the 20,000 to the 100,000 earner (at say a 20% flat tax)...the 4,000 is taking away necessities...

(and I'm a high earner)

no one want to vote for Poll taxing?? :-}
 

ogibowt

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2008
6,260
2,819
113
The big reason theat it has never been followed up on is the screaming by the left side members of the chattering classes and media. The idea that " fair taxes" means if you can afford it you must pay a bigger share. The politician that can ignore or call the bluff of the critters has not yet been born.

The idea that a flat tax would not fill govt coffers is a real argument that govt spending needs to be looked at.
as usual your hyperbole is wind from an orafice...economists from both the left and right have discounted this tax..only those who want simplistic solutuions to complex problems would advocate this tax...
 

Peter123

New member
Apr 28, 2005
566
2
0
too high?

I read good book recently

think of taxes as same as condo fees...so what kind of condo do you want to live in?
 

markvee

Active member
Mar 18, 2003
1,760
0
36
54
There is a "both" option but no "neither" option.

While consumption tax would be preferable to income tax, taxes are immoral.

Contracts should be voluntary.

The government should not be able to force you to pay for its services nor should it be able to forbid competition in providing these services.
 

Peter123

New member
Apr 28, 2005
566
2
0
Oh...please....

all services with competition? really?

ever seen gangs of New York--one of the best scenes is when the competing fire departments showed up...that is what it was truly like, does anyone-even the most extreme libertarian want to go back to that?

Do you want competing roads markvee? parallel water and sewer lines? Chapters now running the library system (and someone else providing a competitor?)....really?

This "no tax" thing is so easy to toss out..but silly to the max
 

misterme

New member
Nov 3, 2009
219
0
0
There is a "both" option but no "neither" option.

While consumption tax would be preferable to income tax, taxes are immoral.

Contracts should be voluntary.

The government should not be able to force you to pay for its services nor should it be able to forbid competition in providing these services.
The reason I didn't put a 'neither' option was I knew almost everyone would choose 'neither.' Plus, I do believe taxes are more necessary than not. I, personally, oppose income taxes.
 

markvee

Active member
Mar 18, 2003
1,760
0
36
54
Oh...please....

all services with competition? really?

ever seen gangs of New York--one of the best scenes is when the competing fire departments showed up...that is what it was truly like, does anyone-even the most extreme libertarian want to go back to that?

Do you want competing roads markvee? parallel water and sewer lines? Chapters now running the library system (and someone else providing a competitor?)....really?

This "no tax" thing is so easy to toss out..but silly to the max
If we are going to use fictional examples in our arguments then I submit the Empire Strikes Back as an example of state imposed services.

If essential services are better delivered under a government monopoly then why doesn't the government deliver everyone their food?
 

markvee

Active member
Mar 18, 2003
1,760
0
36
54
The reason I didn't put a 'neither' option was I knew almost everyone would choose 'neither.'
I oppose democracy because I object to the majority deciding for the minority, but I don't really believe that the majority vote decides (at least with respect to taxes) anyways.
 

train

New member
Jul 29, 2002
6,992
0
0
Above 7
as usual your hyperbole is wind from an orafice...economists from both the left and right have discounted this tax..only those who want simplistic solutuions to complex problems would advocate this tax...
When one disagrees must one always be insulting ? Since when were economists right about very much of anything - except of course the past ? Their track record at prediction is particularly poor.
 

Peter123

New member
Apr 28, 2005
566
2
0
You said neither

If we are going to use fictional examples in our arguments then I submit the Empire Strikes Back as an example of state imposed services.

If essential services are better delivered under a government monopoly then why doesn't the government deliver everyone their food?
so you argument would be for zero government services-no? (cause unless you have some magic way of paying for government services, zero taxation equals zero services)

I never said all essential services should be government--one can have a long, good argument what should or shouldn't be a government service....but "none" is not a logical, realistic position to take....
 

markvee

Active member
Mar 18, 2003
1,760
0
36
54
so you argument would be for zero government services-no? (cause unless you have some magic way of paying for government services, zero taxation equals zero services)

I never said all essential services should be government--one can have a long, good argument what should or shouldn't be a government service....but "none" is not a logical, realistic position to take....
Why must government services be paid for by coerced payment (taxes) rather than by voluntary payment?

Logic tells me that services are provided more efficiently under competition than they are under monopoly.
 

Peter123

New member
Apr 28, 2005
566
2
0
simple...who is going to pay for a "free" good? the Free Rider problem kicks in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_rider_problem

Taxes are the best way to pay for many public goods...now I can get (but wouldn't necessarily agree with) and argument for more user fees on public services--but even there can only go so far....

And I disagree that all services are more efficient with competition--do you want competition in police services? fire departments? roads?
 

markvee

Active member
Mar 18, 2003
1,760
0
36
54
simple...who is going to pay for a "free" good? the Free Rider problem kicks in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_rider_problem
Under taxation, the more productive are compelled to pay for the free riders. I think that instead, the more productive should have the choice of paying for others through voluntary charity.

Taxes are the best way to pay for many public goods...now I can get (but wouldn't necessarily agree with) and argument for more user fees on public services--but even there can only go so far....
Coerced payment (taxation) is the best way to pay for government excess.

And I disagree that all services are more efficient with competition--do you want competition in police services? fire departments? roads?
What is it about police services, fire departments, and roads that make them better provided by government forced monopoly?
 

Peter123

New member
Apr 28, 2005
566
2
0
What is it about police services, fire departments, and roads that make them better provided by government forced monopoly?
how would you envision them being provided otherwise? and perhaps throw in the army and prisons while you are at it?
 

markvee

Active member
Mar 18, 2003
1,760
0
36
54
markvee said:
What is it about police services, fire departments, and roads that make them better provided by government forced monopoly?
how would you envision them being provided otherwise? and perhaps throw in the army and prisons while you are at it?
You didn't answer my question, but I will try to answer yours. As I've stated previously, services are provided more efficiently in a competitive free market than under a monopoly of central planning. However, I am not a competitive free market; I am an individual, so I can at best speculate how the free market would answer a question, and my individual speculation may not amount to a better answer than another individual's central planning. With that caveat, I will attempt to speculate.

Fire departments are the easiest because individuals have organized themselves into voluntary fire departments without government intervention. In terms of a paid fire department, I don't see why there couldn't be competitive fire departments just as there are competing taxi companies that can be called.

As for the army, the Germans avoided invading Switzerland during World War II because Switzerland has a well-armed citizenry. Well-armed insurgents have repelled technically superior invaders as the Vietnamese repelled Americans and the Afghans repelled Soviets. As a US-led invasion looked imminent, Saddam Hussein distributed guns among the Iraqis. I think an army is more important for offensive activities of the state rather than defensive activities of the people.

Why can't individuals openly carry a gun for their self defence, as police do? I think the reason is that the primary function of the police is to protect and serve the state rather than the people, and unequal rights to self defence facilitate their job as law enforcement officers for the state. I think that there are still some police who favour being peace officers rather than law enforcers, but I think that this is an individual choice rather than one promoted by the state. Also, police have replaced highwaymen, acting as mobile tax collectors in their police cruisers with their ticket quotas. If you call for police while under attack then you will have to wait for them to arrive, and they will not engage the aggressor until it is safe for them to do so, regardless of the consequences to you. I think that you are best served arming yourself or employing a security agency whose contract with you is unclouded by a law enforcement mandate.

Private prisons already exist, so it is not difficult to imagine how they might be run, but the real question is how justice would be administered under free market system. There would be no universal laws against things such as drug use or bawdy houses, but there still would be property rights and voluntary contracts, so there would need to be a mechanism to settle cases of assault, murder, theft, property damage, and contract violations. The best that I can offer is that people would obtain their arbitrators on the free market as they do everything else, and people who do not abide by arbitration would develop poor justice histories akin to poor credit histories that would impede future ability to violate others’ property.

As for roads, individuals would maintain roads on their own property, as already happens in parts of cottage country, but highways are more complicated. I can see them being taken over by toll companies that would charge a usage fee to cover maintenance. It would be difficult to build competing highways because the land would need to be purchased from voluntary sellers. The government can more readily build highways by expropriating the land, but is the ease of obtaining the land for highways worth the cost of loss of property rights? Under government, people do not really own their land. They pay rent (property taxes) to government and can lose their stewardship of land to government at any time through expropriation. The government can even expropriate land from one individual and then turn around and sell the land to another individual, as was done with the commercial properties around Dundas Square in Toronto.
 

SilentLeviathan

I am better than you.
Oct 30, 2002
909
0
16
What is it about police services, fire departments, and roads that make them better provided by government forced monopoly?
It's inefficient becuase it requires too much duplication of services. Let's say ou have 5 police companies providing policing services to Toronto, that means for each "police division" you would require 5 police stations, 5 times the amount of police officers, 5 times the number of police cars, etc. You would also require 5 times the amount of government bureaucracy to deal with all the different companies. In the end, for essential services it's much simplier to establish a government run monopoly. The ultimate stateholders in all these services are the citizens so it makes sense to naturally let the government run these organizations.

Taxes are the admission price we pay for living in civilized society. The governenments runs these servcies as they are servcies that are to be provided to all citizen and residents regardless of whether or not they can afford it.
 
Toronto Escorts