UWO student beaten

landscaper

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I think waiting on the outcomer of the investigation is worth the time here, I ahve had the "experiance" of attempting to subdue people under the infuence while in the armed forces, it is not easy.

Please note I am not saying the guy on the bottom was using, I am saying why not wait the conclusion jumping can be done later
 

themexi

Eat the Weak
Jun 12, 2006
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I am sure this sucked for the student doing the resisting, and I am also sure few of us really want to see cops taking someone down. But those suggesting 4-6 cops on 1 should have somehow meant no knees or no punches are just not recognizing actual self-defence training . . .

- The knees: notice how the knee motion is more of a push, not a sharp motion that ends abruptly? The latter involves real force being applied, the former does not. The knees are being pushed into pressure points, like the back of the resisters knees, to force the guy to be flat on the ground. You just cannot see from the bodies where the point-of-impact is, but the pushing motion indicates defence not attack.

- The punching: look at the video again. Notice how the punches all take place when the student has his arm/elbow keeping him off the floor? The student is trying to keep himself free to move his arms, legs, his bodyweight. But the cops are trying to flatten him - technically - onto the ground, so that he has no leverage point. The punches are all aimed at his latissimus muscles and his shoulders, to stop him from gaining leverage. I don't see any punches connecting with the head.

Bottom line: the police want him to lay flat. He's a big strong guy, probably agitated (some alcohol, etc?), and does not want to lay flat. So they play it safe, pile on him, and force him to lay flat. The knees are pushing his knees into the ground, and the punches are weakening his right arm holding him off the ground. Classic subduing method. Classic training. You might not like how it looks, but police are trained to subdue, and subduing does not look pretty.

We lack any further context than the video, but when an internal review looks at this, I bet they conclude "subduing" techniques. Beyond that is a bit speculative, lacking any other contextual information. Maybe some more evidence will shed some more light on it, but the video itself suggests subduing techniques. Again, subduing someone does not look pretty. The real world aint hollywood.

ps: not a police officer! not in law enforcement! just a bit of military training during undergrad years to recognize subduing when I see it.
That's a pretty good analysis there... Makes sense. This does appear to be a case where the force looked worse than it was.

Wrestling with a perp is never a good idea... to many opportunities for injury to the cop when you're in too close.... Arms reach distance is best... That being said it does limit one's options. Keeping a bit of distance decreases the leverage you can use & it limits you to more gross motor movement moves ling armbars, punches, knees, etc.

I think it would be unfair to slam the cops too hard for brutality... looks like they were usung a fair amount of force..... this time anyway.
 

tboy

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Aug 18, 2001
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I think waiting on the outcomer of the investigation is worth the time here, I ahve had the "experiance" of attempting to subdue people under the infuence while in the armed forces, it is not easy.

Please note I am not saying the guy on the bottom was using, I am saying why not wait the conclusion jumping can be done later
Well, I don't have any military or police experience but have experience trying to hold someone down or subdue them and even if they are a light weight, as you said, it ain't easy.

Just look at that recent one where the cop was trying to arrest that kid and his friends videotaped him? He was simply waving his arm around and the cop couldn't get a grip on him.


As to aardvark's post: it is nice to see I'm not the only one who realizes the cops are in a no-win situation. Doesn't matter what they do, right or wrong someone will damn them for it.....
Now imagine someone 200 lbs holding his arms locked together. You have to be pretty damn strong to break that grip.
 

Sammy the Bull

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Apr 18, 2009
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Well, I don't have any military or police experience but have experience trying to hold someone down or subdue them and even if they are a light weight, as you said, it ain't easy.

Just look at that recent one where the cop was trying to arrest that kid and his friends videotaped him? He was simply waving his arm around and the cop couldn't get a grip on him
Add drugs to the situation and it only exacerbates things. Ask any cop how strong someone becomes when they're on PCP??!!
You dont wanna fuck with someone who's on that stuff, they feel no pain.
 

chrispalen

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Apr 14, 2007
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Beaten UWO student can't remember what happened: Dad

Beaten UWO student can't remember what happened: Dad
By THE CANADIAN PRESS

Last Updated: 16th October 2009, 3:07pm

LONDON, Ont. — A student said to have been out of control and delusional before he was beaten by police during a violent arrest at the University of Western Ontario doesn’t remember what happened, his father said Friday.

Merzuk Zeljkovic said he was unable to explain what had sparked the incident involving his son Irnes, which was captured on surveillance video and viewed by tens of thousands on the Internet.

“I don’t know what’s happened,” his father told The Canadian Press.

“Irnes no remember. I’m upset.”

Zeljkovic, 22, visited the family doctor Friday and planned to talk to a lawyer, his father said.

The video shows half-a-dozen officers pummelling the student in a campus building hallway, prompting a wide range of reaction from severe criticism that excessive force was used to support for the police action.

During the 90 second clip, police are seen kneeing the student aggressively in the torso, repeatedly beating him on the back with batons and punching him hard.

His mother, who asked her name not be used, said her son was “still shocked,” was tired, and just wanted to sleep.

She also said she had no idea what prompted the incident, saying she was waiting until he was in better shape to try to figure out what had happened.

“I don’t know, really. All of us are all so shocked. I have no idea,” she said in a telephone interview.

“We just need time.”

She said her son had some injuries from the arrest, but said she couldn’t describe them.

“I can’t talk now. I’m sorry. I’m so stressed and shaking,” she said.

Elgin Austen, director of campus police, said his officers were initially called after a delusional student, believing himself to be a professor, barged into an eighth-floor office and attempted to evict its occupant.

“He thought he was somebody else. He didn’t recognize his position or where he was — he thought he was a professor at Western and he named a professor,” Austen said in an interview.

The powerful, 220-pound fourth-year student was “hyped up” and resisted arrest and efforts to calm him down before city police, who arrived within minutes, used force to subdue him, said Austen, a former deputy chief of operations at London police.

Police said they had no prior contact with Zeljkovic.

“He must have been a good student or we would have had contact with him and we haven’t,” Austen said, adding this was the worst such incident he had seen in more than six years as campus police head.

“Something has happened more recently in his life to create this situation.”

Toxicology tests were being done to see whether he was under the effects of drugs although alcohol was not involved, police said.

Despite criticism from some who had viewed the video, Austen said it’s not surprising some viewers would have misinterpreted what they saw.

“Once they hit YouTube and other areas like that, the thing takes off and has a life of its own,” Austen said.

“People judge based on what they saw, and some people at least become instant experts.”

He did say the crowd who witnessed the arrest first-hand were respectful and did not interfere while police did their job.

Police were completing their investigation into the incident, reviewing the use of force, and were making counselling available to those impacted, including Zeljkovic and his family.

The video can be viewed at youtube.com/watch?v17mj553jzhM.

- Written by Colin Perkel in Toronto


CP
 

Brandon123

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Feb 24, 2008
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If it took 6 security guys to take down this one guy, then he had to be resisting arrest. What if this guy decided to hurt other students, who knows what his mindset was. In the past, crazy students have killed other University Students. Better safe than sorry, he got what he deserved.
 

Dewalt

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Feb 8, 2005
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Ahhh...I love the "thanksgiving graduates" - you know, the ones who get to university and party for 6 weeks and then suddenly find themselves failing and kicked out of the school. They always freak out...this guy apparently just took it too far.

Wait til "daddy who was paying the bills" finds out :)
 

pencilneckgeek2

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Ahhh...I love the "thanksgiving graduates" - you know, the ones who get to university and party for 6 weeks and then suddenly find themselves failing and kicked out of the school.
Except he was a 4th year student. Nice try though. :rolleyes:
 

HOF

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Mho

1. The student should have responded to the officers requested regardless of the number of officers there. The only difference is if the student was high on something.

2. This was an easy situation to deal with! He was already on the ground. Let me explain:
If he had both arms tucked under himself, he has restrained himself. What would be done is to have an officer lean against one side of this body tightly and have another officer pull the opposite arm out. A third officer would place handcuffs on the open hand and place is a reverse arm bar. Then do the same procedure to the other arm and cuff together.

If the student is struggling with both arms being restrained in an outward position and is face down, the officer could place their shin across the back of the tricep (pressure point) It's amazing how compliant the student would become.

If the man is kicking while face down, it's only going to hit the officers in the arse. The legs are the strongest muscles in the body, so only attempt to restrain if absolutely required and to be placed in leg restraints.

If the man was banging his head against the floor, another officer simply applies pressure to the back of the head so that he can't bang as banging even the slightest can cause whiplash, concussion, bleeding, etc.

Transporting the man should be done in a bent over position. The man is cuffed and the officers can move him in a reverse arm bar, with one hand on his neck. Thing of being in a stockade. A third officer should contain the head in case of a fall.

PERIOD: They did not require six officers to do the job of 3. Unless an officer needed to be relieved. Why weren't some of those officers dispersing the crowd?

I may come across strong here, but I worked in the prison system as an officer and was a self defense trainer. What we have here is a failure to communicate and someone should wear it.

It was so much easier when you would subdue a bad guy with your baton once or twice. Sometimes, all the new technology, etc. just doesn't work well. Believe me, I'm on the side of law enforcement, but it's obvious they require more training. Believe me, any type of law enforcement is a thankless job, it's admirable but there are so many things going against them nowadays.
 

daty

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Aug 18, 2001
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After reading that they had chased him down from the 8th floor room where he had said he was a wellknown prof the initial responders were a bit tired and the kid remembers nothing of the whole thing with all due respect I doubt many drugged up prisoners can get on that Many stairs
1. The student should have responded to the officers requested regardless of the number of officers there. The only difference is if the student was high on something.

2. This was an easy situation to deal with! He was already on the ground. Let me explain:
If he had both arms tucked under himself, he has restrained himself. What would be done is to have an officer lean against one side of this body tightly and have another officer pull the opposite arm out. A third officer would place handcuffs on the open hand and place is a reverse arm bar. Then do the same procedure to the other arm and cuff together.

If the student is struggling with both arms being restrained in an outward position and is face down, the officer could place their shin across the back of the tricep (pressure point) It's amazing how compliant the student would become.

If the man is kicking while face down, it's only going to hit the officers in the arse. The legs are the strongest muscles in the body, so only attempt to restrain if absolutely required and to be placed in leg restraints.

If the man was banging his head against the floor, another officer simply applies pressure to the back of the head so that he can't bang as banging even the slightest can cause whiplash, concussion, bleeding, etc.

Transporting the man should be done in a bent over position. The man is cuffed and the officers can move him in a reverse arm bar, with one hand on his neck. Thing of being in a stockade. A third officer should contain the head in case of a fall.

PERIOD: They did not require six officers to do the job of 3. Unless an officer needed to be relieved. Why weren't some of those officers dispersing the crowd?

I may come across strong here, but I worked in the prison system as an officer and was a self defense trainer. What we have here is a failure to communicate and someone should wear it.

It was so much easier when you would subdue a bad guy with your baton once or twice. Sometimes, all the new technology, etc. just doesn't work well. Believe me, I'm on the side of law enforcement, but it's obvious they require more training. Believe me, any type of law enforcement is a thankless job, it's admirable but there are so many things going against them nowadays.
 

fuji

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The police did nothing *wrong*, and I certainly wouldn't want to see them disciplined for this.

On the other hand it would have been *nice* if they could have brought him into custody with less violence. I am sure there were ways to do that, but again, I wouldn't want to remove the option to use the sort of force they did, and I would want the decision made by an officer on the scene, not by the peanut gallery.

Perhaps we can increase the emphasis in police training on non-violent means of bringing someone into custody, institute a system of rewards for those officers with a cool head who are able to bring situations under control in a peaceful fashion, and so on.
 

thompo69

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Nov 11, 2004
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The police did nothing *wrong*, and I certainly wouldn't want to see them disciplined for this.

On the other hand it would have been *nice* if they could have brought him into custody with less violence. I am sure there were ways to do that, but again, I wouldn't want to remove the option to use the sort of force they did, and I would want the decision made by an officer on the scene, not by the peanut gallery.

Perhaps we can increase the emphasis in police training on non-violent means of bringing someone into custody, institute a system of rewards for those officers with a cool head who are able to bring situations under control in a peaceful fashion, and so on.
Some interesting comments from a former police officer. He singles out one of the officers for having gone too far.

http://lawiscool.com/2009/10/15/uwo-arrest-justified-arrest-or-abuse-of-power/
 

zeebo

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Funny you need 7 cops to pin down some kid. Obviously excessive force, but that's nothing new with cops.
 

tboy

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Funny you need 7 cops to pin down some kid. Obviously excessive force, but that's nothing new with cops.
Funny thing is: we never see all the steps before the video is shot.

The cops probably:
1) approached him and asked wtf was going on
2) told him to come along quietly
3) told him in a strong voice to face the wall he was being arrested
4) called for backup when he was acting irrationally
5) chased him down the stairs while yelling STOP POLICE
6) tried to cuff him while he was standing
7) piled onto him after putting him to the ground (which is the only thing we saw).

So, it is an escalation of force, not excessive force.

What I find hilarious in all these "big bad cop videos" is not once did ANY of the cops start the problem, every one of their actions is of a responsive nature. The perps ALL have control over what kind of force is required for the cops to do their job. If they give up? They get cuffed and put into the back of the cruiser. Big bubbles no troubles. No bruises, no hits, no wrestling.

If they fight? The cops WILL not stop until they are subdued because that is their job!
 

GotGusto

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Even if he was resisting and fighting back, my God can't 6 cops hold him down long enough to handcuff him? There was no need to keep kneeing and punching him. Disgraceful.
Yes, it does take 6 men to hold down and handcuff a man who is resisting arrest and trying not to be handcuffed - provided that they do not intend to break his arms or kill him. In fact, holding down prisoners in maximum security prisons using 5+ guards is standard practice. One guard for each limb (4 guards total) and one for the head. And these prison guards wear body armor and shields. If they intended to kill him then it would be no problem for 5 officers to do that. A couple of them could stand on his back so he can't breath and suffocate him (this has happened during arrests), they could snap his neck, beat him to death with their batons etc.

There seem to be a lot of naive people on this board. Just because a lone woman would be able to pin you down and handcuff you using her pinky finger doesn't mean that all men can be. Not every guy is an obese couch potato who gets dizzy after carrying anything weighing over 20 pounds. You get a guy who is built, 6 foot 2 inches, and over 200 lbs and it takes a whole lot to subdue him. Stop the bullshit.

The cops did nothing wrong as far I can tell.
 

fuji

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Funny you need 7 cops to pin down some kid. Obviously excessive force, but that's nothing new with cops.
Actually no, it's realistic to need 5+ people to pin someone down, assuming that you want to manage it without any of the officers being injured.

The idea is not to have a fair fight. The idea is to bring force to bear and get the guy into custody without anybody being hurt.

If you tried to arrest him with just two or three officers he might get in a punch or two. With five or more officers participating in the arrest it is much less likely that the guy will be able to hurt anybody--including himself.
 
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