Religious organization"saves" mother and daughter from porn industry....

[dreamblade]

What irks me is that each religion claims to have "saved" someone in the first place, which is proof that said religion is where it's at.

Wrong!

All these religious groups offer is a sense of direction and purpose to people who have none. There's nothing wrong with that, inherently, but claiming your way is the only way is, quoting Penn & Teller, bullshit.

You will get the same sense of purpose and direction from Taoism, Buddhism, or Wicca. Some people get it from the mere fact they have a child, or a terminal illness.

I have the same beef with New Atheists. Their claim that nobody needs a spiritual path is as ridiculous as the claims of the religions they denounce. With all the crap going in people's lives, dead-end jobs, uncaring spouses, debts, morning traffic, getting older, etc... , having a spiritual belief to draw comfort and strength is not such a bad thing.

 

[Cycleguy007]

What irks me is that each religion claims to have "saved" someone in the first place, which is proof that said religion is where it's at.

Wrong!

All these religious groups offer is a sense of direction and purpose to people who have none. There's nothing wrong with that, inherently, but claiming your way is the only way is, quoting Penn & Teller, bullshit.

You will get the same sense of purpose and direction from Taoism, Buddhism, or Wicca. Some people get it from the mere fact they have a child, or a terminal illness.

I have the same beef with New Atheists. Their claim that nobody needs a spiritual path is as ridiculous as the claims of the religions they denounce. With all the crap going in people's lives, dead-end jobs, uncaring spouses, debts, morning traffic, getting older, etc... , having a spiritual belief to draw comfort and strength is not such a bad thing.

I don't disagree with anything you've said here DB... My problem with them all is when they start with the "give us donations so we can continue our ministry" bullshit. Why should ANYONE have to pay anything???

Spirituality is free.

 

[dreamblade]

I don't disagree with anything you've said here DB... My problem with them all is when they start with the "give us donations so we can continue our ministry" bullshit. Why should ANYONE have to pay anything???

Spirituality is free.

Religion is big business. It always was. The Roman Catholic Church is the one that came up with the concept of the corporation, and behaves, to this day, as any big company does.

 

[gramage]

Spirituality is free.

No offence Cycleguy, but that might be the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

 

[Cycleguy007]

Religion is big business. It always was. The Roman Catholic Church is the one that came up with the concept of the corporation, and behaves, to this day, as any big company does.

And they are EXTREMELY WEALTHY! Assets well in the trillions if I have my facts right...

 

[Cycleguy007]

No offence Cycleguy, but that might be the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

No offense taken... but when I say "spirituality", I am referring to it in the most basic sense of the word.

It doesn't cost a penny to believe in something.

 

[WoodPeckr]

And they are EXTREMELY WEALTHY! Assets well in the trillions if I have my facts right...

LOL!
That's what happens when they pass the collection basket around 2-3 times during every mass!....

 

[dreamblade]

No offence Cycleguy, but that might be the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

Having a personnal relationship with the divine costs you nothing, unless you're Catholic. That was the schism that brought on the Protestant movement of Martin Luther. You may want to explain why you think this is bull... unless you're a Catholic, then that's all the explanation I'd need.

 

[Cycleguy007]

Having a personnal relationship with the divine costs you nothing, unless you're Catholic. That was the schism that brought on the Protestant movement of Martin Luther. You may want to explain why you think this is bull... unless you're a Catholic, then that's all the explanation I'd need.

What he said!

 

[gramage]

Well the tax exempt status certainly costs us all, several different religions demand specific cuts of what you earn, the whole spirituality movement in addition to being bullshit is a multi-million if not billion dollar industry...

Penn and Teller's show bullshit was mentioned earlier, check out the episodes they've done on the vatican, exorcisms, signs from heaven, holier then though people like the Dhali Lama and mother Theresa...

Or look up Christopher Hitchens work, including his book god is not great how religion poisons everything.

 

[Cycleguy007]

Well the tax exempt status certainly costs us all, several different religions demand specific cuts of what you earn, the whole spirituality movement in addition to being bullshit is a multi-million if not billion dollar industry...

Penn and Teller's show bullshit was mentioned earlier, check out the episodes they've done on the vatican, exorcisms, signs from heaven, holier then though people like the Dhali Lama and mother Theresa...

Or look up Christopher Hitchens work, including his book god is not great how religion poisons everything.

OK... I get it now... you are confusing spirituality with religion. These are 2 totally separate things!

I agree with you that religion is BULLSHIT though.

 

[gramage]

OK... I get it now... you are confusing spirituality with religion. These are 2 totally separate things!

I agree with you that religion is BULLSHIT though.

I've never bought that distinction. Spirituality was made up by people who rejected religion (because it's bullshit) but still wanted the false comfort it provides. So they buy crystals instead of crosses visit tarot card readers or "therapists" who make up conditions to be cured by meditation instead of confessionals but it's still the same lie.

 

[dreamblade]

I've never bought that distinction. Spirituality was made up by people who rejected religion (because it's bullshit) but still wanted the false comfort it provides. So they buy crystals instead of crosses visit tarot card readers or "therapists" who make up conditions to be cured by meditation instead of confessionals but it's still the same lie.

Ok, you may believe it is a lie, but as a martial arts student and a practicing Pagan, I think it's not. As I said in my original post, people have to deal with a lot in their every day lives: shitty jobs, relationship troubles, financial crises...

If a little magic helps them focus, gives them the structure they need, and allows them to realise their potential, how is this bad?

Not everyone is smart or strong enough to do it on their own, what do you suggest they do?

In the Pagan Traditions, we have this commandement:

An it do no harm, do what thou wilt.

This seemingly simple statement has helped many become better people in ways more established religions have not.

Science is great! I'm a technician by trade, and an amateur astronomer, dabble in paleontology, and follow developments of projects like CERN avidly. But I have a strong spiritual life as well. Meditation, Chi Kung, and private or group ritual gives me the serenity, rejuvenation, and mental strength to persevere in more mundane affairs.

 

[gramage]

Not everyone is smart or strong enough to do it on their own, what do you suggest they do?

You think people are too weak to live without living a lie? I thought I was supposed to be the cynical one here

 

[scouser1]

But how is someone like Hitchens or Dawkins really that different from a militant religious wacko?? they are just atheist wackos, two sides of the same coin.

 

[gramage]

But how is someone like Hitchens or Dawkins really that different from a militant religious wacko?? they are just atheist wackos, two sides of the same coin.

Because they will and do adjust their views as new information is learned. Find actual evidence of anything supernatural and they will evaluate it. Disprove the dating methods used to show the age of the earth they'll accept it, find bunnies in the precambrian era they'll admit their theories are wrong. Prove conclusively as has been done that the shroud of Turin is a fake and the people that believe it keep believing it.

They are the exact opposite of the religious wackos as they have shown over and over and over and over again but because religion almost by definition has nothing new to offer they keep having to face that same stupid allegation.

 

[dreamblade]

You think people are too weak to live without living a lie? I thought I was supposed to be the cynical one here

No. I'm saying people, all people, need their lives to have purpose. Following a spiritual path helps some achieve just that, and allows them to be the best they can be. Painting anyone who has a spiritual aspect to their lives makes you no better than the religious fundies your New Atheists rose up to fight. You too try to shove your way of seeing the world down others' throats, and if they don't, they are worthy of contempt. You're intolerant and rejecting of something that is not only harmless, but actually helpful to many.

once again: If it harms no one, do what you will.

It's also interesting that you should mention Dawkins, who is currently working with the CoE on a project to stop the Creationist movement within the bounds of the faith.

 

[scouser1]

Because they will and do adjust their views.

and you know this how? you are able to get inside the heads of Dawkins and Hitchens? I think trying to argue religion and a concept of a Creator with them is about as pointless as trying to disprove that with a Pat Robertson or a member of the Taliban.

 

[gramage]

No. I'm saying people, all people, need their lives to have purpose. Following a spiritual path helps some achieve just that, and allows them to be the best they can be. Painting anyone who has a spiritual aspect to their lives makes you no better than the religious fundies your New Atheists rose up to fight. You too try to shove your way of seeing the world down others' throats, and if they don't, they are worthy of contempt. You're intolerant and rejecting of something that is not only harmless, but actually helpful to many.

once again: If it harms no one, do what you will.

It's also interesting that you should mention Dawkins, who is currently working with the CoE on a project to stop the Creationist movement within the bounds of the faith.

You mentioned Dawkins first so I included him. I wasn't aware he was doing that and my initial reaction is someone not of a faith shouldn't be trying to change it. Debate with people that it's wrong yes, but not change it.

You're adding quite a bit I don't think I'm saying, number one I started this by calling the rest of religion "the SECOND" biggest con" didn't say no better, they are better because their actions based on it generally cause less harm although I wouldn't say no harm. I do think religion and spirituality cause harm as all dogmatism does.

And to scouser I know this because they say it and I believe them, if they rejected legitimate evidence I would change my mind about that. Dawkins in particular has an anecdote he loves using about when he was a student he had a professor who had spent his whole career working on one theory (I don't know what) that a visiting lecturer completely disproved. This prof got up and said "thank you, I have been wrong these last x number of years." Dawkins presents that as the ideal of intellectual honesty and science, so I think he would try to live by it.

 

[Mencken]

Good discussion...
Saw an article recently by a former fundamentalist Christian...Frankie Shaeffer (who is still a Christian, but not so fundy any more) and it points out a lot of dangers of the fundamentalist right wingers. It confirms some of my worst fears...there is potential for a Christian Taliban that is every bit as disconnected with reality, and as extreme, as that in Afghanistan.