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Keesmaat: Tear Down This Wall

Anbarandy

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Apr 27, 2006
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Mayoral candidate Jennifer Keesmaat takes on John Tory over the Gardiner

By Jennifer PagliaroCity Hall Bureau
Sun., Sept. 30, 2018

Mayoral candidate Jennifer Keesmaat is vowing to tear down the eastern portion of the Gardiner Expressway, replacing it with a ground-level boulevard, after council ignored her advice as chief planner.

The “grand boulevard” option, as Keesmaat and other city builders, planners and advocates for the option have long called it, would replace the council-approved plan under Mayor John Tory to rebuild the 1950s-era elevated expressway and maintain the decked connection to the Don Valley Parkway.

Toronto mayoral candidate Jennifer Keesmaat, seen at an earlier debate, says she wants to see the eastern portion of the Gardiner Expressway torn down and replaced by a ground-level boulevard.

Keesmaat said, standing in front of the Gardiner on Sunday morning. “Forward-looking cities are tearing down their elevated expressways and instead creating new communities and new places.”

Tearing down the structure would unlock valuable land underneath through a shorter construction period and better connect the rest of the city to the waterfront, Keesmaat said. It is the first major campaign promise that sets her firmly apart from Tory ahead of the Oct. 22 election.

But it’s unclear what it will cost to renege on existing contracts and what the cost difference is between the two options.

The option to rebuild the Gardiner approved by the city would unlock about 7.5 acres of developable land, primarily city-owned, according to an earlier city staff report, valued at $72 million to $83 million.

Removing that portion of the Gardiner as Keesmaat proposes would create 12 acres of developable land.

Besides being the better city-building option, Keesmaat said, the boulevard remains significantly less expensive to build and maintain. She says the boulevard option will save upwards of $500 million.

Council ultimately selected what was called the “hybrid” option, which still involves a deck east of Jarvis St., but creates a tighter turn to allow some land to be made available in the east Harbourfront area.

When the original debate happened in 2015, an earlier hybrid option, including 100-year maintenance costs, was estimated at $919 million, while the boulevard was costed at $461 million: a $458-million difference.

The cost of the altered hybrid option increased to $1.053 billion in 2016 after design changes.

After the hybrid cost ballooned, staff put forward a new financing approach that brought costs to $2.3 billion for construction over only 10 years.

While the boulevard cost would have increased over time due to inflation, that cost has not been updated publicly by city staff since 2015.

The city has already signed contracts for the rebuild, including $3 million in design work that would likely be considered lost if the city switched to a boulevard option.

And, in June, a contract for construction of the project totalling $313 million was awarded to Aecon, with construction expected to begin this fall.

“In any scenario, it costs significantly less to build infrastructure on the ground then to rebuild it in the sky,” Keesmaat said.

She also noted the difficulty and cost of maintaining elevated infrastructure, as the city is now experiencing with concrete chunks crumbling off the Gardiner, requiring extensive repair.

The time savings for a small number of commuters would be insignificant, while the savings that could be achieved from the boulevard option are huge, she said.

During the 2015 debate, Tory repeatedly and misleadingly claimed drivers could save up to 10 minutes using an unrealistic study. The city, working to minimize delays, put forward a removal option that would have increased travel time, on average, by just 52 seconds. The number of drivers travelling west on the eastern section of the Gardiner during the morning rush hour, staff reported, totalled just 5,200 — a small percentage of all morning commuters.

Keesmaat was criticized by the mayor and those close to him for voicing her support of the boulevard option as chief planner during the original debate. Nick Kouvalis, again a key strategist on Tory’s campaign, tweeted in 2015 that she was “insubordinate” and suggested she resign to voice her opinion as a private citizen.

Now that she is, Tory’s campaign accused her of wanting to “make traffic worse for everyone — whether you take transit, drive or cycle — in one of the fastest growing parts of the city.”

“Ms. Keesmaat also failed to mention that the City of Toronto awarded a $313-million contract back in June to rehabilitate the Gardiner and its connection to the Don Valley Parkway. What will it cost to tear up that contract? How much is Ms. Keesmaat willing to pay to make traffic worse?” Tory said in a statement.

Keesmaat said the city can’t throw up its hands and feel like nothing can be done about a bad decision despite signed contracts.

“This is about ensuring we’re not throwing good money after bad,” Keesmaat told the Star after Tory’s remarks. “It would cost an astronomical amount not to reverse course on this, and we have a responsibility to the taxpayers in the city as well as to our children and future generations to solve this mess once and for all.”



This mistake by the eastern part of the lake must go.
 

Anbarandy

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Apr 27, 2006
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Oh wow, finally a reply, but just WTF does your reply even mean?
 

james t kirk

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2001
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The city recently signed a 360 million dollar contract with AECON to repair the eastern portion of the Gardiner. (And AECON left 100 million dollars on the table. Ouch.)

If the City were to cancel that contract, they would have to pay AECON, ooh, about 360 million dollars to walk away and do nothing.

Even if she gets elected, which she will not, she can't cancel that contract without paying.
 

wigglee

Well-known member
Oct 13, 2010
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Oh wow, finally a reply, but just WTF does your reply even mean?
I thought you were aware of her proposal. The "grand boulevard" is what she claims will replace the Lakeshore and the Gardner. But of course, it will not be grand, it will be an insane snarl of congestion and gridlock throughout the whole lower downtown. It's social engineering terminology much like calling road rage inducing concrete planters in the street, "traffic calming".
 

jcpro

Well-known member
Jan 31, 2014
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Why are we even talking about it? Firstly, it will not happen. Secondly, Keesmaat is a nobody, with no traction outside of the pockets of downtown. Thirdly, she's entirely media's attempt at Tory having a straw opponent- all others be damned. This election will only matter on the Council level, the mayoralty is already decided.
 

oldjones

CanBarelyRe Member
Aug 18, 2001
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I thought you were aware of her proposal. The "grand boulevard" is what she claims will replace the Lakeshore and the Gardner. But of course, it will not be grand, it will be an insane snarl of congestion and gridlock throughout the whole lower downtown. It's social engineering terminology much like calling road rage inducing concrete planters in the street, "traffic calming".
I said many of the same things when the first proposal was made, to tear down the elevated Gardiner and replace it with a boulevard. Since then I have lived with the ground-level result for almost as long as long as the elevated†.

You're wrong, just as I was. All that will happen is that drivers who used to creep down the bottom bit of the Park[ing]Way (trapped on it south of Richmond) will now have more options. They'll no longer have to snail their way around the bend and along the Gardiner into the downtown by one of just three ramps. From Bloor south they'll be able to pick the route the that's best for their destination. If more of them leave their cars and commute by transit, that will be better too.

Just as they always have and always will, people will find their own best ways to get around. Jammed up expressways that inevitably obey the Law of Gravity are never among the best ways for long.
-----------
† FYI, that part of the elevated Gardiner survived just 24 years after it opened in 1966. The thing is doomed, we're only discussing timing.
 

Anbarandy

Bitter House****
Apr 27, 2006
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I thought you were aware of her proposal. The "grand boulevard" is what she claims will replace the Lakeshore and the Gardner. But of course, it will not be grand, it will be an insane snarl of congestion and gridlock throughout the whole lower downtown. It's social engineering terminology much like calling road rage inducing concrete planters in the street, "traffic calming".
Throughout the world wherever and whenever 'elevated' expressways were dismantled none of the ensuing 'insane snarl of congestion and gridlock' that you claim will occur has actually happened. Why would it be any different for Toronto, especially when all the studies, analysis and data undertaken demonstrate that would not be the case?
 

Anbarandy

Bitter House****
Apr 27, 2006
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Why are we even talking about it? Firstly, it will not happen. Secondly, Keesmaat is a nobody, with no traction outside of the pockets of downtown. Thirdly, she's entirely media's attempt at Tory having a straw opponent- all others be damned. This election will only matter on the Council level, the mayoralty is already decided.
Because it is the right thing to do based upon the reams and reams of data and sound cost benefit analysis that was produced leading up to the politically motivated Tory led coalition 2015 vote to damn the evidence and consequences and let's go backwards in time.

Tory has repeatedly refused to implement evidence based decision making in favour of a political pandering based model and has actually twisted the arms of the experts in attempts to fudge the data so that the evidence is not so obviously not in favour of his already predetermined positions.
 

oldjones

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Aug 18, 2001
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Because it is the right thing to do based upon the reams and reams of data and sound cost benefit analysis that was produced leading up to the politically motivated Tory led coalition 2015 vote to damn the evidence and consequences and let's go backwards in time.

Tory has repeatedly refused to implement evidence based decision making in favour of a political pandering based model and has actually twisted the arms of the experts in attempts to fudge the data so that the evidence is not so obviously not in favour of his already predetermined positions.
And, just like the Century overdue DRL, we will do it one day might as well be when all the evidence is saying. 'Don't be stupid, do it now", and the evidence was clearly saying that in the last century. This century has already been proving for decades we don't need the danger, inconvenience and expense of the elevated Gardiner. Since the City's broke and getting broker, wasting more money to keep the crumbling thing up in the air is terminally stupid.
 

GameBoy27

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Nov 23, 2004
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Question: With this plan of tearing down the Gardiner east of Jarvis, would that entail all traffic bypassing the downtown core (DVP south to Gardiner west/Gardiner east to DVP north) have to drive along a section of boulevard potentially stopping at several traffic lights along the way?
 

Anbarandy

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Apr 27, 2006
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Question: With this plan of tearing down the Gardiner east of Jarvis, would that entail all traffic bypassing the downtown core (DVP south to Gardiner west/Gardiner east to DVP north) have to drive along a section of boulevard potentially stopping at several traffic lights along the way?
I have traveled the Gardiner on many occasions between The Kingsway and the DVP. The section in question between Jarvis St. to the DVP is for the most part so lightly traveled compared to the section between Jarvis and The Kingsway. So much so, that bottlenecks suddenly disappear around Jarvis St.

This is confirmed by traffic studies and the analysis that went into 'keep or remove the Eastern Gardiner' that demonstrate that there will be just 52 seconds of extra travel time for just the 5200 motorists who travel that section during rush time hours.

52 measly seconds for just 5200 car drivers hardly qualifies as catastrophic congestion and gridlock.
 

Frankfooter

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Apr 10, 2015
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I have traveled the Gardiner on many occasions between The Kingsway and the DVP. The section in question between Jarvis St. to the DVP is for the most part so lightly traveled compared to the section between Jarvis and The Kingsway. So much so, that bottlenecks suddenly disappear around Jarvis St.

This is confirmed by traffic studies and the analysis that went into 'keep or remove the Eastern Gardiner' that demonstrate that there will be just 52 seconds of extra travel time for just the 5200 motorists who travel that section during rush time hours.

52 measly seconds for just 5200 car drivers hardly qualifies as catastrophic congestion and gridlock.
Which is why we really should be listening to the planners instead of the populists.
 

explorerzip

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Jul 27, 2006
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This project will create traffic chaos for everyone: cars, transit and trucks, during and long after the demolition because Lakeshore will have to be closed from Yonge eastward. Even when the bridge deck is gone, Lakeshore will be a constant construction zone for months if not years while they install bike lanes, tree planters, lights, etc. in a vain attempt to make the street look good. That was definitely the case on Highway 7 near Leslie in Richmond Hill where they kept closing and reopening lanes to do those very things. I guess it makes too much sense to install those things all at once and minimize impact.

We'd be cutting off major roads like Jarvis, Sherbourne and Parliament at Lakeshore. All those vehicles will be forced onto Front. King would be useless because of the streetcars.

The city has used the Gardiner as an excuse not to build for decades. If they truly wanted to develop that land they would have done so already by expropriating the land next to the Gardiner near Cherry that is currently occupied by car repair shops, truck dealers, and parking lots.

I find it ironic (actually sad) that the former city planner does not know or care to know the consequences this decision would make to the road system.
 

Anbarandy

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Apr 27, 2006
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U forgot to include the man from Mars eating cars as another cause of traffic chaos from an expanded Lakeshore Blvd.
 

Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
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This project will create traffic chaos for everyone: cars, transit and trucks, during and long after the demolition because Lakeshore will have to be closed from Yonge eastward. Even when the bridge deck is gone, Lakeshore will be a constant construction zone for months if not years while they install bike lanes, tree planters, lights, etc. in a vain attempt to make the street look good. That was definitely the case on Highway 7 near Leslie in Richmond Hill where they kept closing and reopening lanes to do those very things. I guess it makes too much sense to install those things all at once and minimize impact.

We'd be cutting off major roads like Jarvis, Sherbourne and Parliament at Lakeshore. All those vehicles will be forced onto Front. King would be useless because of the streetcars.

The city has used the Gardiner as an excuse not to build for decades. If they truly wanted to develop that land they would have done so already by expropriating the land next to the Gardiner near Cherry that is currently occupied by car repair shops, truck dealers, and parking lots.

I find it ironic (actually sad) that the former city planner does not know or care to know the consequences this decision would make to the road system.
Yes but tearing down the Gardiner will take less time then rebuilding it, so the construction chaos should be shorter then trying to repair it.
 

james t kirk

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Aug 17, 2001
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I have traveled the Gardiner on many occasions between The Kingsway and the DVP. The section in question between Jarvis St. to the DVP is for the most part so lightly traveled compared to the section between Jarvis and The Kingsway. So much so, that bottlenecks suddenly disappear around Jarvis St.

This is confirmed by traffic studies and the analysis that went into 'keep or remove the Eastern Gardiner' that demonstrate that there will be just 52 seconds of extra travel time for just the 5200 motorists who travel that section during rush time hours.

52 measly seconds for just 5200 car drivers hardly qualifies as catastrophic congestion and gridlock.
Nonsense.

Engineering consultants are the worst whores out there. They will say whatever their clients want them to say and they will manipulate their analysis to come up with their client's desired outcome. Traffic modelling software that churn out these magic numbers which the gullible believe require many variables to be "assumed" . The engineer running the software already knows this. His client tells him, "look, your study needs to show that if we tear down the Gardiner the result will be no more than a 60 second delay" and the consulting engineer, being the whore that he is, already knows exactly which assumption or assumptions he can massaged a bit to spit out the desired result and churn out the pretty output with lots of colourful charts (that no-one reads anyway) to simply print out and fatten up his worthless report and submit his invoice to the city.

When the Gardiner gets demolished and wait times are more like an hour, it will be too late because the damn thing got torn down and it's not going to go back. The public will scream and yell and the city bureaucrats will just say, "well we hired this Engineering consultant see and he is supposed to be the expert in his field, blah blah blah and what do you want me to do about it?"

The whore engineering consultant will just claim that the data he was given was wrong, or the model didn't take into account this or that and that is not his fault etc etc etc. The scrutiny will abate and the same consultant will keep working for the city on new projects regardless because he did what he was told. Everyone is happy. (Except the schmos stuck in traffic.)

If you are so dumb to believe any engineering study like this, I have an Expressway for sale I'd like you to look at.
 

oldjones

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Aug 18, 2001
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Question: With this plan of tearing down the Gardiner east of Jarvis, would that entail all traffic bypassing the downtown core (DVP south to Gardiner west/Gardiner east to DVP north) have to drive along a section of boulevard potentially stopping at several traffic lights along the way?
The studies show that what you called "all traffic bypassing the downtown core" amounts to a very small percentage of what comes in on the Gardiner. Almost none of it is crossing town and going out the other side, pretty much all of it is heading into the downtown (or leaving from downtown). Putting those folks on the ground somewhere south of Bloor, gives them more options to start moving towards their destinations sooner.

As for stopping at traffic lights along the way, it's not a lot different from stopping for the jammed up traffic that's so often too heavy for the limited exit ramps to handle. And up there in the air, you have zero options.
 

james t kirk

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Aug 17, 2001
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Yes but tearing down the Gardiner will take less time then rebuilding it, so the construction chaos should be shorter then trying to repair it.
Nonsense again.

The time to build a brand new road will probably be 3 times what it will take to repair the damn thing. The geometry and more importantly the infrastructure is already in place to support the existing Expressway. A new road will require you to completely reconstruct every single utility to suit the new construction. That means every fucking sanitary sewer, storm sewer, water main, water service, gas main, hydro (high voltage), hydro service, natural gas, Bell, Rogers, Telus, street lighting, FTMS, abandoned utilities in the way, drive ways, access roads, you fucking name it. None of which can be seen because it's all fucking buried. All the existing infrastructure will be wrong, in the wrong place and will need to be reconstructed. It will end up costing multiples more of what the original budget ever was dreamed up.

You have no idea when you post such naivety.

And all the while you're doing this, you have to maintain all service and all access for the public. The public that will be just screaming day in and day out about dust and noise and construction and inconvenience and the media will get in on the game and the politicians will get in front of the cameras and bray away about being outraged.

Don't believe me?

Just google "Toronto Saint Clair street car utilities budget" and see for yourself. And that was just 2 lanes. Imagine fucking 10 and demolishing the Gardiner on top of it all.
 

james t kirk

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2001
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The studies show that what you called "all traffic bypassing the downtown core" amounts to a very small percentage of what comes in on the Gardiner. Almost none of it is crossing town and going out the other side, pretty much all of it is heading into the downtown (or leaving from downtown). Putting those folks on the ground somewhere south of Bloor, gives them more options to start moving towards their destinations sooner.

As for stopping at traffic lights along the way, it's not a lot different from stopping for the jammed up traffic that's so often too heavy for the limited exit ramps to handle. And up there in the air, you have zero options.
Wanna see what it will be like?

Just put up some stop lights on the Gardiner at the locations where you'd have stop lights and sit back and watch the chaos unfold. (I know that can't happen, but it would be utter chaos)
 
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