Voter Caging Rampant - Could Have VERY Relevant Impact On Election

[RTRD]

"Republicans said in the motion that it is central to American democracy that nonqualified voters be forbidden from voting."

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/09/us/politics/09voting.html?pagewanted=2&_r=1&th&emc=th

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081009/ap_on_el_ge/voter_purges

I have never understood this mindset, and it is something that is at the forefront of my mind because I live with it every election here in Canada (I have legal status, here, I pay taxes here, but I cannot vote).

I have never understood why there is such effort to EXCLUDE voters versus INCLUDING them. How denying people the right to vote based on details is supposed to be democracy at work.

The government should be making efforts to try to GET people to be part of the voting process. As a concept I feel that everyone who is subject to the laws of a government should have a vote - that would include illegal aliens, etc. To me, it is absurdly ridiculous to think that the number of people who would abuse this privilege - like, for example driving 4 hours to travel to a state where they don't live in order to cast a vote in a state or federal election - would even approach the number of people who are being erroneously excluded BUT should have a vote.

That aside, I do understand you'd never get such a law / scenario in place.

However, I see no reason why every person who has legal standing - such as myself - does not get a vote. I live here, legally, under the laws of the government. I pay taxes. Why can I not vote?

Back to the U.S., it fascinates me that it seems all efforts to increase registration / participation, such as motor voter laws, are almost always find resistance. How can you claim to believe in democracy and knowingly limit the number of person who can participate?

Really - is there a reason why this is so complicated? Why isn't it as simple as - present a document that certifies your legal status (such as a social security card....can't get one unless you have legal status) and some form of government ID that proves you are who you say you are (and if the ID has your social security number, GREAT, then that is all you need), and vote. The social security number is stored in a temporary database to prevent you from voting twice, and viola -there you go. Why do you have to "register"? What does THAT prove....that you want to vote? doesn't SHOWING UP prove that? Does it prove who are who you say you are? Doesn't showing up with approved government ID prove that? Why is it a two step process...and why are governments so anxious to EXCLUDE people versus INCLUDING them?

It really is bullshit...it is things like this the erodes at the belief in government that people have...

 

[Aardvark154]

"Republicans said in the motion that it is central to American democracy that nonqualified voters be forbidden from voting."

I have never understood this mindset

We truly do live on different planets. You don't see as important that only U.S. Citizens vote in U.S. Elections, that only residents of a particular state vote in that state's election? That one votes in but a single place?

I live with it every election here in Canada (I have legal status, here, I pay taxes here, but I cannot vote).

There may well be legitimate reasons, but if you are a landed immigrant, are you not on track to become a Canadian National by Naturalization?

I see no reason why every person who has legal standing - such as myself - does not get a vote. I live here, legally, under the laws of the government.

One simple reason, it diminishes the value of Citizenship, one is either a national of a State or one is not. (somewhat like the famous statement regarding pregnancy).

Why isn't it as simple as - present a document that certifies your legal status (such as a social security card....can't get one unless you have legal status)

You are unfamiliar with Social Security fraud? There are tons of illegal aliens in the U.S. who have very legitimate looking and utterly fraudulent Social Security Cards. Therefore you are in reality speaking of a National Identity Card - which is anathema to both liberal and conservative groups in the U.S.

 

[The Crunge]

A little secret....because they know that the vast majority of people who either don't vote, or who they are trying to prevent from voting, will vote Democrat....otherwise they would not be so dogged about this.....but it's a secret, so don't tell anyone.

 

[LancsLad]

Technically, and I say this for emphasis, one must be a Canadian Citizen to vote in our Federal elections.



But we all know, at least those of us involved in the political process, that the rule is just a joke.


We all know non citizens, and that includes landed immigrants, who are not only on the voters list, but vote.

Thats wrong, but since the error favours one side of the political spectrum and their media pals there is never anything substantive done about it.



.

 

[RTRD]

I think...

We truly do live on different planets.

..this has been established

You don't see as important that only U.S. Citizens vote in U.S. Elections, that only residents of a particular state vote in that state's election?

No, I don't - at least not relevant to how important I think it is that everyone who has to be subject to the laws of a government get a say as to who governs them

That one votes in but a single place?

This is the red herring I spoke of. The number of people who will actually endeavor to vote more than once is meaninglessly low...quite meaningless compared to the number of people who should be able to vote but are denied the right due to efforts to exclude the former. Besides, as I said, you could prevent this in most cases with 1970's computer technology. Everyone with legal status gets a SSN#. Use that to qualify voters.

You might not be able to access the NYT article, but it has some stats in it. The ratio is over 10 to 1 in regards to legitimate voters being purged versus illegitimate ones.

There may well be legitimate reasons, but if you are a landed immigrant, are you not on track to become a Canadian National by Naturalization?

It is part of the process, but citizenship is not a guarantee, and it takes time....years...seven, to be exact.

One simple reason, it diminishes the value of Citizenship, one is either a national of a State or one is not. (somewhat like the famous statement regarding pregnancy).

What value is Citizenship? The only thing I cannot do in Canada is vote, or work on a top secret project. In the U.S., you don't have to be a citizen to even serve in the armed forces.....you can DIE for your country, but you can't have a say in the war being fought or not.

You are unfamiliar with Social Security fraud? There are tons of illegal aliens in the U.S. who have very legitimate looking and utterly fraudulent Social Security Cards. Therefore you are in reality speaking of a National Identity Card - which is anathema to both liberal and conservative groups in the U.S.

I am familiar with it - so what keeps these same person from registering to vote, given that they use the same ID, other than the fact that voter registration is made arduous?

To register to vote, you need proof of citizenship, and proof of address. Ok....so then you could use that at the polling place. Why does it need to be a two step process?

What you are REALLY saying is that the U.S. needs a more fraud proof SS card....something i could support, given the issues with illegal workers and the (supposed) impact they have on the economy. THAT would seem to be a larger and more relevant issue than worring about if said illegals are going to vote.

I mean...if you are an illegal alien...are you going to be anxiuos to be going places where you are going to have you citizenship tested? It is one thing to create a false SS card so you can work and provide for your family. It is another to imply that this person is also anxious to "corrupt" the voting process.

And...BTW...as I implied...why shouldn't they be able to vote? If they work...if they pay taxes (which was the point of getting this false SSN#, right? To score LEGITIMATE work...the type you pay taxes on), if they have to live under the laws of the government, why should they NOT be able to have a say in who that government is?

 

[danmand]

Technically, and I say this for emphasis, one must be a Canadian Citizen to vote in our Federal elections.

But we all know, at least those of us involved in the political process, that the rule is just a joke.

We all know non citizens, and that includes landed immigrants, who are not only on the voters list, but vote.

Thats wrong, but since the error favours one side of the political spectrum and their media pals there is never anything substantive done about it.

Some joke. I never had a chance to vote when I was a landed immigrant.

 

[Aardvark154]

You don't see as important that only U.S. Citizens vote in U.S. Elections, that only residents of a particular state vote in that state's election? That one votes in but a single place?

No, I don't - at least not relevant to how important I think it is that everyone who has to be subject to the laws of a government get a say as to who governs them

Wow, you should go down to the States and work for ACORN they are under investigation in both Nevada and Missouri for voter fraud.

 

[y2kmark]

Red herrings aside ...

ACORN controversy: Voter fraud or mudslinging?

By DEBORAH HASTINGS, AP National Writer Deborah Hastings, Ap National Writer – Sat Oct 18, 12:37 pm ET

ACORN spokesperson Kevin Whelan speaks at a press conference in Washington, Tuesday, Oct. 14, 2008. Behind … The stories are almost comical: Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck, registered to vote on Nov. 4. The entire starting lineup of the Dallas Cowboys football team, signed up to go the polls — in Nevada.

But no one in either presidential campaign is laughing. Not publicly, anyway.

Republicans, led by John McCain, are alleging widespread voter fraud. The Democrats and Barack Obama say the controversy is preposterous and is just political mudslinging.

In the middle is the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now, known as ACORN, a grass-roots community group that has led liberal causes since it formed in 1970. This year, ACORN hired more than 13,000 part-time workers and sent them out in 21 states to sign up voters in minority and poor neighborhoods.

They submitted 1.3 million registration cards to local election officials.

Along the way, bogus ones appeared — signed in the names of cartoon characters, professional football players and scores of others bearing the same handwriting. And in the past few days, those phony registrations have exploded into Republican condemnations of far-ranging misconduct, and a relatively obscure community activist group took a starring role, right behind Joe the Plumber, in the final presidential debate.

Looking beyond the smoke and fire, the raging argument boils down to essentially this:

Is ACORN, according to McCain, perpetuating voter fraud that could be "destroying the fabric of democracy"? Or are Republicans trying to keep the disadvantaged, who tend to be Democrats, from casting ballots in a hotly contested presidential race that has drawn record numbers of new voters?

By legal definition, to commit voter fraud means a person would have to present some kind of documentation at the polls — a driver's license, a phone bill or another form of ID — that bears the name of Mickey Mouse, for example. To do so risks a fine and imprisonment under state laws.

Submitting fake registration cards is another matter. Local law enforcement agencies in about a dozen states are investigating fake registrations submitted by ACORN workers. Late last week, The Associated Press reported the FBI will be reviewing those cases.

Accusations of stolen votes have a long history in presidential elections. In the 2000 recount debacle, Republicans claimed illegal ballots were cast. Democrats contended that legal ballots were thrown out. In 2004, when Ohio gave the presidency to George W. Bush, Democrats charged that long lines and malfunctioning machines in that state led to an inaccurate count.

But in this contest, involving the first African-American in American history with a real chance at becoming president, the vitriol is particularly pointed.

"This is all just one big head-fake," said Tova Wang of the government watchdog group Common Cause. "What silliness this is, at this point. It's all about creating this perception that there is a tremendous problem with voter fraud in this country, and it's not true."

On Friday, during a campaign appearance, Republican vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin repeated McCain's recent claims that Obama has close ties to ACORN.

"You deserve to know," Palin told thousands in a park north of Cincinnati. "This group needs to learn that you here in Ohio won't let them turn the Buckeye State into the Acorn State."

Obama helped represent ACORN in a successful 1995 suit against the state of Illinois, which forced enactment of the so-called motor-voter law, making it easier for people to register vote. Obama said this week that he had "nothing to do with" ACORN's massive voter registration drive.

ACORN spokesman Brian Kettenring retaliated this week in a series of conference calls and interviews. "What we're seeing is the manufacture of a crisis, and attempts to smear Sen. Obama with it. It gives you an excuse should you lose or if there's a contested outcome of the election."

Voter fraud is rare in the United States, according to a 2007 report by the nonpartisan Brennan Center for Justice at the New York University School of Law. Based on reviews of voter fraud claims at the federal and state level, the center's report asserted most problems were caused by things like technological glitches, clerical errors or mistakes made by voters and by election officials.

"It is more likely that an individual will be struck by lightning than he will impersonate another voter at the polls," the report said.

Alex Keyssar, a professor at Harvard's Kennedy School of Government, calls the current controversy "chapter 22 in a drama that's been going on awhile. The pattern is that nothing much ever comes from this. There have been no known cases of people voting fraudulently."

"What we've seen," Keyssar said, "is sloppiness and someone's idea of a stupid joke, like registering as Donald Duck."

ACORN officials have repeatedly claimed that their own quality control workers were the first to discover problematic ballots. In every state investigating bad registrations, ACORN tipped off local officials to bogus or incomplete cards, spokesman Kettenring said.

Many states require that all registrations be submitted to local voting officials so that election directors are in charge of vetting problem ballots, not the groups collecting them.

Part-time ACORN workers receive one day of training and are paid $8 an hour to collect signatures, according to Kettenring. He blamed bogus cards on cheating and lazy employees trying to make a buck for doing nothing.

When caught, Kettenring said, those workers are fired. The group is in the process of tallying the number of bad cards ACORN flagged for election officials, he said. Kettenring said he doubted the percentage of such registrations would reach 2 percent.

But Republicans say any number of fake registrations is unacceptable and could affect the November election.

Signing up voters is a small part of ACORN activities. The group frequently leads challenges to minimum wage laws, predatory mortgage lending in poor and working-class neighborhoods and immigration policies.

Controversy is nothing new. Its leaders are currently locked in a legal dispute stemming from allegations that the brother of the group's founder misappropriated nearly $1 million of the nonprofit's money several years ago.

Since the 2004 election, ex-employees have been convicted of submitting false registrations in states including Florida and Missouri.

"There are certainly problems and I don't think anyone disagrees on that," said Wang of Common Cause. "But it doesn't get reported that ACORN finds these registrations errors themselves. They flag them as being no good, but they have to turn them in anyway."

"They don't get processed," she said. "And Mickey Mouse is not going to vote."

Bottom line is the "voter fraud" angle really doesn't have much substance. The voter caging concerns really haven't been similarly debunked.