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US foreign policy: North Korea

vidi vici veni

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Here's an interesting article from today's New York Times. It doesn't leave one feeling very optimistic about the future of nuclear proliferation.

vvv

"Games Nations Play
By PAUL KRUGMAN


What game does the Bush administration think it's playing in Korea?

That's not a rhetorical question. During the cold war, the U.S. government employed experts in game theory to analyze strategies of nuclear deterrence. Men with Ph.D.'s in economics, like Daniel Ellsberg, wrote background papers with titles like "The Theory and Practice of Blackmail." The intellectual quality of these analyses was impressive, but their main conclusion was simple: Deterrence requires a credible commitment to punish bad behavior and reward good behavior.

I know, it sounds obvious. Yet the Bush administration's Korea policy has systematically violated that simple principle.

Let's be clear: North Korea's rulers are as nasty as they come. But unless we have a plan to overthrow those rulers, we should ask ourselves what incentives we're giving them.

So put yourself in Kim Jong Il's shoes. The Bush administration has denounced you. It broke off negotiations as soon as it came into office. Last year, though you were no nastier than you had been the year before, George W. Bush declared you part of the "axis of evil." A few months later Mr. Bush called you a "pygmy," saying: "I loathe Kim Jong Il — I've got a visceral reaction to this guy. . . . They tell me, well we may not need to move too fast, because the financial burdens on people will be so immense if this guy were to topple — I just don't buy that."

Moreover, there's every reason to take Mr. Bush's viscera seriously. Under his doctrine of pre-emption, the U.S. can attack countries it thinks might support terrorism, whether or not they have actually done so. And who decides whether we attack? Here's what Mr. Bush says: "You said we're headed to war in Iraq. I don't know why you say that. I'm the person who gets to decide, not you." L'état, c'est moi.

So Mr. Bush thinks you're a bad guy — and that makes you a potential target, no matter what you do.

On the other hand, Mr. Bush hasn't gone after you yet, though you are much closer to developing weapons of mass destruction than Iraq. (You probably already have a couple.) And you ask yourself, why is Saddam Hussein first in line? He's no more a supporter of terrorism than you are: the Bush administration hasn't produced any evidence of a Saddam-Al Qaeda connection. Maybe the administration covets Iraq's oil reserves; but it's also notable that of the three members of the axis of evil, Iraq has by far the weakest military.

So you might be tempted to conclude that the Bush administration is big on denouncing evildoers, but that it can be deterred from actually attacking countries it denounces if it expects them to put up a serious fight. What was it Teddy Roosevelt said? Talk trash but carry a small stick?

Your own experience seems to confirm that conclusion. Last summer you were caught enriching uranium, which violates the spirit of your 1994 agreement with the Clinton administration. But the Bush administration, though ready to invade Iraq at the slightest hint of a nuclear weapons program, tried to play down the story, and its response — cutting off shipments of fuel oil — was no more than a rap on the knuckles. In fact, even now the Bush administration hasn't done what its predecessor did in 1994: send troops to the region and prepare for a military confrontation.

So here's how it probably looks from Pyongyang:

The Bush administration says you're evil. It won't offer you aid, even if you cancel your nuclear program, because that would be rewarding evil. It won't even promise not to attack you, because it believes it has a mission to destroy evil regimes, whether or not they actually pose any threat to the U.S. But for all its belligerence, the Bush administration seems willing to confront only regimes that are militarily weak.

The incentives for North Korea are clear. There's no point in playing nice — it will bring neither aid nor security. It needn't worry about American efforts to isolate it economically — North Korea hardly has any trade except with China, and China isn't cooperating. The best self-preservation strategy for Mr. Kim is to be dangerous. So while America is busy with Iraq, the North Koreans should cook up some plutonium and build themselves some bombs.

Again: What game does the Bush administration think it's playing? "
 

gala

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china

The problem is China, and China is involved in this in complicated ways. Remember that China is a major superpower that borders on North Korea, is likely to see the region as "its sphere of influence", and ultimately has a veto at the UN security council that it would probably use. Any action by the US would then be unilateral against North Korea and against the wishes of its regional neighbours.

The issues for China are numerous. First and foremost a US invasion of North Korea would end with US troops on the Chinese border, possibly installed there for a long time to come. China will want to avoid that at all costs.

Second, an invasion of collapse of North Korea would trigger a huge flood of refugees into China, potentially destabilizing the area of China bordering on North Korea.

Third, China is ultimately to blame for North Korea having nuclear weapons as it was China who sold the technology to Pakistan, which then sold it back to North Korea.

Fourth, in name and in theory China is a communist state and North Korea is a neighbouring friendly communist state. Though China's communist party is now well versed in market economics and is far from communist, they may want to keep up appearances in order to maintain the legitimacy of the revolution that installed them into power.

So China may view the whole thing as being essentially on "their turf", and China tends to consider nuclear proliferation as being a problem that causes more problems for America than for itself, so it's not as pressed to act as we are.
 

onthebottom

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I have to admit I'm a bit confused on this

Other than the only superpower argument (which I'm personally getting tired of) I don't see the compelling argument for this being a US problem. We do have 30k troops in the area but other than that I think this is more Russia, China's, S. Korea's and Japan's problem than ours. This idiot does not live within short missile shot of 25% of the world’s oil supplies. I can't for the life of me think of why we spend so much time/effort/money in S. Korea and Japan. The locals despise our presence and we have large trade imbalances (that was for Dr. Gonzo who was going to claim it is greedy capitalists).

I really think we should let some areas of the world; where the US does not have a compelling interest, go on without our heavy hand. Like the British did with the Middle East, just walk away and see who picks up the ball. My guess is China. As long as the trade routs are free to passage (and a CVG is pretty good at insuring that) why do we need to be there?

OTB
 

onthebottom

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Re: china

gala said:
The problem is China, and China is involved in this in complicated ways. Remember that China is a major superpower that borders on North Korea, is likely to see the region as "its sphere of influence", and ultimately has a veto at the UN security council that it would probably use. Any action by the US would then be unilateral against North Korea and against the wishes of its regional neighbours.

The issues for China are numerous. First and foremost a US invasion of North Korea would end with US troops on the Chinese border, possibly installed there for a long time to come. China will want to avoid that at all costs.

Second, an invasion of collapse of North Korea would trigger a huge flood of refugees into China, potentially destabilizing the area of China bordering on North Korea.

Third, China is ultimately to blame for North Korea having nuclear weapons as it was China who sold the technology to Pakistan, which then sold it back to North Korea.

Fourth, in name and in theory China is a communist state and North Korea is a neighbouring friendly communist state. Though China's communist party is now well versed in market economics and is far from communist, they may want to keep up appearances in order to maintain the legitimacy of the revolution that installed them into power.

So China may view the whole thing as being essentially on "their turf", and China tends to consider nuclear proliferation as being a problem that causes more problems for America than for itself, so it's not as pressed to act as we are.
Gala,

You were writing your message as I was writing mine. Good analysis. I do think this is China's problem and not ours. Didn't N. Korea shoot a missile over Japan a while back? I think that would make it Japan's problem as well. Given the history of the region (WWII) I don't think Japan can take an aggressive stand in Asia (see Germany in Europe), which leaves it in the Chinese sphere of influence.

OTB
 

vidi vici veni

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Re: Re: china

onthebottom said:
[snip]I do think this is China's problem and not ours.[snip]
All the more reason perhaps for the US not adopting inflammatory rhetoric?

vvv
 

onthebottom

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Re: Re: Re: china

vidi vici veni said:
All the more reason perhaps for the US not adopting inflammatory rhetoric?

vvv
I think that's what I said. The other argument would be that dictators with 1 million troops and a starving population are dangerous nuclear players. But without ICBM technology, it's not directly our problem. I think the US should let Canada lead on this one.

OTB
 

vidi vici veni

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Re: Re: Re: Re: china

onthebottom said:


I think that's what I said. The other argument would be that dictators with 1 million troops and a starving population are dangerous nuclear players. But without ICBM technology, it's not directly our problem. I think the US should let Canada lead on this one.

OTB
I believe the article was addressing the folly of "Talk trash but carry a small stick". Certainly US actions in this instance have provided a lesson to other countries. Iraq was quick to pick up on it.

I suppose if you're rather sanguine about the consequences of nuclear proliferation, then 'what the hell'. And if, in the specific instance, you think that what happens in Asia is of little consequence here, then 'what the hell, part II.' I can't say I share your rosy view.

vvv
 

TravellingGuy

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Re: Re: Re: Re: china

onthebottom said:
I think the US should let Canada lead on this one.
Perhaps we already are by letting people live their own lives. In the last few posts OTB you made some statements that very clearly show the rest of the world the exact narrow mindness of some US citizens:

"We do have 30k troops in the area but other than that I think this is more Russia, China's, S. Korea's and Japan's problem than ours. This idiot does not live within short missile shot of 25% of the world’s oil supplies."

So much for actually making the world believe the US is out to stop terrorism, its all about the oil isnt it?

"I do think this is China's problem and not ours. "
"But without ICBM technology, it's not directly our problem."

I think this article and the actions and non-actions of the US government towards N.Korea vs. Iraq is a clear indicator of the real motivator of the heavy US hand.

Based on everything you yourself stated why would Canada care anymore than the US, they aren't anymore of a threat to Canada than they are to the US. Oh but wait, it isnt Canada that has appointed themselves the Head Justice of the World that needs to free all the oppressed peoples. Oh wait thats not it either as clearly shown, if you are an evil man and yet you don't have oil or you aren't close enough to hurt us, then its not our problem.

Thanks OTB for showing those great Red, White and Blue colours.
 

onthebottom

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: china

vidi vici veni said:
I believe the article was addressing the folly of "Talk trash but carry a small stick". Certainly US actions in this instance have provided a lesson to other countries. Iraq was quick to pick up on it.

I suppose if you're rather sanguine about the consequences of nuclear proliferation, then 'what the hell'. And if, in the specific instance, you think that what happens in Asia is of little consequence here, then 'what the hell, part II.' I can't say I share your rosy view.

vvv
I think Sadam is going to find out how big the stick is in a couple of months.

It's a dammed if you do and a dammed if you don't. If the US leads on this and drives a tough stance we're called imperialists, arrogant..... If we back off, see your comments above.

The article said we're taking on Sadam because he has the smallest military. I think he's first because he's the biggest threat to US interests. I don't think the daddy thing has anything to do with it but conspiracy theories abound. What clear threat to the US does N. Korea provide?

OTB
 

train

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To what extent is this a Bush Administration strategy as opposed to an "American " policy ?

The situation is that only China has any sort of capable military other than the US . Japan ? Aren't they in the same boat as Canada with a military in name only ?

How long has the US had a presence in South Korea ? 45 years? Doesn't that put them in a bit of an awkward position . I mean they can't exactly withdraw now , the time for withdrawal being during periods of total calm and not during nuclear proliferation .

I can't see the American public accepting another Vietnam so the prospect of a pre-emptive action by the US has to be small . Heck I don't even see the US public being supportive of invading Iraq if they didn't assume it was going to be a complete whitewash .

North Korea would not be a complete rout .

Bush can't risk another 9/11 so he still has to pursue whoever he can identify as a threat , he can't govern based on his economic record , the economic recovery is being put in jeopardy by oil issues in Iraq and Venezuela and he can't fight any battle that he can't win quickly and decisively . What exactly do you expect him to do in N. Korea ?

Pretty tough spot . ( Thank heavens for Colin Powell )
 
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onthebottom

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: china

TravellingGuy said:


Perhaps we already are by letting people live their own lives. In the last few posts OTB you made some statements that very clearly show the rest of the world the exact narrow mindness of some US citizens:

"We do have 30k troops in the area but other than that I think this is more Russia, China's, S. Korea's and Japan's problem than ours. This idiot does not live within short missile shot of 25% of the world’s oil supplies."

So much for actually making the world believe the US is out to stop terrorism, its all about the oil isnt it?

"I do think this is China's problem and not ours. "
"But without ICBM technology, it's not directly our problem."

I think this article and the actions and non-actions of the US government towards N.Korea vs. Iraq is a clear indicator of the real motivator of the heavy US hand.

Based on everything you yourself stated why would Canada care anymore than the US, they aren't anymore of a threat to Canada than they are to the US. Oh but wait, it isnt Canada that has appointed themselves the Head Justice of the World that needs to free all the oppressed peoples. Oh wait thats not it either as clearly shown, if you are an evil man and yet you don't have oil or you aren't close enough to hurt us, then its not our problem.

Thanks OTB for showing those great Red, White and Blue colours.
TG,

This is going to be messy because you can't use the quote function but I'll give it a shot.

I'm merely suggesting we let people live their own lives as well.

N. Korea is about nuclear proliferation not terrorism, Iraq is about WMD not terrorism. It's only about the oil to the extent that the US wants the rest of the region not to be threatened. No one is really stupid enough to think the US will take Iraqi's oil.

US policy tends toward trying to right every wrong, as opposed to your first point, letting people live their lives. I think an earlier poster said it better than I did, this is really in the China sphere of influence.

I think the US needs to pick it's battles, see the damned if you do, damned if you don't comment. And what about those Red and White colors? Is the US compelled to lead on this issue but no word is necessary from Canada? I think it's telling that a post on a Canadian board is about US foreign policy, no one has yet mentioned your countries policy. Doesn’t being one of the G8 countries obligate you to some form of responsibility? Or is it easier to be a quarterback on Monday morning?

Fire away!

OTB
 

onthebottom

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Good points

train said:
To what extent is this a Bush Administration strategy as opposed to an "American " policy ?

The situation is that only China has any sort of capable military other than the US . Japan ? Aren't they in the same boat as Canada with a military in name only ?

How long has the US had a presence in South Korea ? 45 years? Doesn't that put them in a bit of an awkward position . I mean they can't exactly withdraw now , the time for withdrawal being during periods of total calm and not during nuclear proliferation .

I can't see the American public accepting another Vietnam so the prospect of a pre-emptive action by the US has to be small . Heck I don't even see the US public being supportive of invading Iraq if they didn't assume it was going to be a complete whitewash .

North Korea would not be a complete rout .

Bush can't risk another 9/11 so he still has to pursue whoever he can identify as a threat , he can't govern based on his economic record , the economic recovery is being put in jeopardy by oil issues in Iraq and Venezuela and he can't fight any battle that he can't win quickly and decisively . What exactly do you expect him to do in N. Korea ?

Pretty tough spot . ( Thank heavens for Colim Powell )
China does have the only credible military in the region, other than Russia if you consider that in the region.

War is a non-starter, it won't happen. This will be negotiated; it's in no one's interest (including N. Korea) to pursue this much farther.

The US can't leave anytime soon. Although I think this is similar to our NATO presence. I can't understand why after 45 years S. Korea can't protect themselves.

It's the economy in the last half of 2004 that counts. And this is the Clinton economy we're living in. But that's another long discussion.

I think the only real course of action is sanctions ala Iraq. Again, the people pay the price. China and Russia may make them back down, we can only hope.

Couldn't agree more about Colin Powell. A side note, I had seen him speak a couple of years ago. Amazing guy. I'd like to see him elected in 2008!

OTB
 

gala

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what the US is probably doing

I think the "game" the US is playing is to threaten as much as possible to do something about it so that other nations in the region will actually do something about it. Those would be China, Japan, and South Korea, all three of which would likely prefer a regional solution to the problem.

China in particular tends to be "non-interventionist" unless it has a direct interest--so perhaps the US is trying to lean on China to do something.

As in, China might do something about it just so no US troops ever arrive on its border, whereas without pressure, China might prefer to let the whole thing fester awhile longer.
 

TravellingGuy

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: china

onthebottom said:
It's only about the oil to the extent that the US wants the rest of the region not to be threatened. No one is really stupid enough to think the US will take Iraqi's oil.
So now the focus shifts again to protecting Iraq's neighbours and yet the neighbours of Iraq have no fear of Iraq, both Saudi Arabia and Iran have strongly opposed the US actions. Its ok to protect the regions around Iraq but what about the regions around N. Korea, again you said it best, this is about protecting the US interests, sure the media can throw in some great humanitarian stories about how its to protect the people, how its to better the region, but its obviously its about protecting your own interests.

That is simply the flaw with US Foreign Policy that has enraged so many people in regards to the policies. I'm against any policies (both Canadian and US) that are nothing more then self interests.

onthebottom said:
I think it's telling that a post on a Canadian board is about US foreign policy, no one has yet mentioned your countries policy.
Could it be that we don't have the horrible policies that the US has? Certainly we are just as guilty by association for continually supporting the US in their policies, but do you see 500,000 protestors anywhere in the world protesting Canada's Policies? Perhaps Canada is just better at hiding our bad policies,or perhaps the rest of the world is finally getting enlightened to the bad US policies and they are starting to stand against it. Perhaps if more US citizens were informed about what's actually going on instead of what the media portrays (and I don't mean you, you obviously seem educated and have made your own decisions based on your findings, but there are many US citizens that blindly believe their Country is doing nothing but good).

onthebottom said:
Doesn’t being one of the G8 countries obligate you to some form of responsibility?
Apparently being one ofthe G8 means nothing at all, atleast not to the US leadership. Germany and Italy are also members of G8 and they have strongly opposed the US and British actions in Iraq.
 

onthebottom

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: china

TravellingGuy said:


So now the focus shifts again to protecting Iraq's neighbours and yet the neighbours of Iraq have no fear of Iraq, both Saudi Arabia and Iran have strongly opposed the US actions. Its ok to protect the regions around Iraq but what about the regions around N. Korea, again you said it best, this is about protecting the US interests, sure the media can throw in some great humanitarian stories about how its to protect the people, how its to better the region, but its obviously its about protecting your own interests.

There is a very long thread about this somewhere. A one sentence summary of my view is that Iraq is a threat to Israel and the oil fields of Kuwait and Saudi.

TravellingGuy said:

That is simply the flaw with US Foreign Policy that has enraged so many people in regards to the policies. I'm against any policies (both Canadian and US) that are nothing more then self interests.

Why is that surprising? While I think the US intentions are largely pure they certainly should align with US interests or I as a citizen would be pretty upset. My government’s job is to look after my security and prosperity.

TravellingGuy said:

Could it be that we don't have the horrible policies that the US has? Certainly we are just as guilty by association for continually supporting the US in their policies, but do you see 500,000 protestors anywhere in the world protesting Canada's Policies? Perhaps Canada is just better at hiding our bad policies,or perhaps the rest of the world is finally getting enlightened to the bad US policies and they are starting to stand against it. Perhaps if more US citizens were informed about what's actually going on instead of what the media portrays (and I don't mean you, you obviously seem educated and have made your own decisions based on your findings, but there are many US citizens that blindly believe their Country is doing nothing but good).



Apparently being one ofthe G8 means nothing at all, atleast not to the US leadership. Germany and Italy are also members of G8 and they have strongly opposed the US and British actions in Iraq.
I don't think the world knows what Canadian policies are, I don't think they care. I don't think they are distinct enough to matter. That's really my point. I think when you draw protestors your taking a stand, it does not mean your wrong. What is Canada's stand on Iraq? What is Canada's stand on N. Korea? Why have I not heard that your policy approach is superior?

OTB
 

TravellingGuy

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: china

onthebottom said:
There is a very long thread about this somewhere. A one sentence summary of my view is that Iraq is a threat to Israel and the oil fields of Kuwait and Saudi.
A threat to Israel? Israel has one of the most superior armies in the region (thanks to very strong backing by the US), I can't see anyone (not even Sadam) being crazy enough to attack Israel. Saudi Arabia has already publically stated that it doesnt see Iraq as a threat and is completely against the actions. Sadam already learned his lesson the last time he invaded Kuwait, do you believe he would again march in there? In a previous post you mentioned that no one believes the US in attacking Iraq to take Iraq's Oil, but if Sadam doesn't really pose a threat to any neighbours (and since the neighbours aren't complaining and there is yet to be any evidence that he is dangerous) and yet the US still wants to replace Sadam, why could that be? Could it be because Sadam doesnt want to play ball with OCEAP (I'm sure I got this one wrong, but anyways its the coalition to control oil prices in the middle east). After the US throws down Sadam they will put someone into place who is better suited to playing ball with the US. This would suit the US's best interests, that of the Oil of Iraq, but that doesn't mean its going to be the best interests of Iraq or the neighbours of Iraq.

onthebottom said:
Why is that surprising? While I think the US intentions are largely pure they certainly should align with US interests or I as a citizen would be pretty upset. My government’s job is to look after my security and prosperity.
Of course we all want our governments to protect us, but you should question at what cost to the other citizens of the world. The sanctions against Iraq have done more harm then good, the policies of the United States have over time put a few people into power that have then had to be removed from power at a later date. The policies of the US have created Osama and Sadam. Perhaps if your country wasn't out trying to secure your prosperity so much than you wouldn't have to worry about your security.

onthebottom said:
I don't think the world knows what Canadian policies are, I don't think they care. I don't think they are distinct enough to matter. That's really my point. I think when you draw protestors your taking a stand, it does not mean your wrong. What is Canada's stand on Iraq? What is Canada's stand on N. Korea? Why have I not heard that your policy approach is superior?
[/B]
The same could be said of many of the other countries in the world. What's Germany's Foreign Policies? What's Frances? The fact is that the US policies come under attack often because they are policies that hurt other countries. If Canada, Germany, France or anyone else was taking the actions that the US takes then we would be scrutinized as well.

I don't hold my own countries government in the highest regard, I don't believe we hold all the answers to solving all the world's problems, but I'm humbled enough that I don't believe that I should be forcing my policies on any other country either.
 

remyxo

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Re: How to create deterence

Pallydin said:
If you were to ask me, the play for the US when it comes to North Korea is quite simple: you move a nuclear sub within range and launch a missile right into one of the sites they have reopened. Now before you get all moral on me, I'll add the catch....the missile should not carry a nuclear warhead, but maybe a small explosive designed to incinerate the missile itself into fine ash over the building in question (possibly doing serious structural damage to the roof if anything).

PAL
One drawback to this concept, is that North Korea's early warning radar, would have no way to determine whether or not the missile was nuclear or conventional.

I'd hate to see N. Korea react with an all-out nuclear salvo, based on their "belief" that they were in fact being targetted with nuclear weapons.

By the way...I have no doubt there is already more than one U.S. sub, in close proximity to North Korea...and I'm sure they know it.

I don't want to see war(s), anymore than most other sane adults in the west, but considering I don't have the access to the information that the U.S. government does, I will err on the side of G.W. Bush, rather than believe all is well, until proven otherwise.

Although I'm not a history expert (and those of you better informed will no doubt correct me), I think Hitler was left alone, with a "wait and see attitude"...that didn't work out well at all.

Hitler with Weapons of Mass Destruction?...Seems to sound a lot like Saddam...should we wait and find out who's wrong?

I'm proud to be a Canadian and wouldn't change that if the opportunity arose, but we (Canada) are woefully unqualified to play at the level discussed here. The only thing more hysterical than our military, is our government and our leaders.

Just my 2 cents...feel free to give me change.
 
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