UFC 121: Lesnar vs. Velasquez

[The Oracle]

Date: Oct 23, 2010
Location: Anaheim, California
Venue: Honda Center
Broadcast: Pay-per-view

MAIN CARD

* Champ Brock Lesnar vs. Cain Velasquez (for heavyweight title)
* Martin Kampmann vs. Jake Shields
* Diego Sanchez vs. Paulo Thiago
* Matt Hamill vs. Tito Ortiz
* Gabriel Gonzaga vs. Brendan Schaub

Lesnar vs Velasquez...... Velasquez. I think his quickness and great gas tank will prevail as he drags Lesnar into a 5 round GnP victory.

Kampmann vs Shields..... Shields. Shields does what he does best and get this to the ground where he grinds out a decision.

Sanchez vs Thiago......... Thiago. Sanchez hasn't improved in a while and Thiago will catch him with a third round sub.

Hamill vs Ortiz...............Hamill. Ortiz's act is wearing a little thin and Hamill will gas him out and finish him in the third.

Gonzaga vs Schaub....... Schaub. Gonzaga looks better on paper but never seems to deliver whereas Schaub trains at a great camp and is always improving. 2nd round KO.

 

[bowser]

I got Lesner hes bigger, stronger and cardio is just as good if not, better. Carwin couldn't even knock him out, what's Cain got other than speed?

Gonzaga, hes got a chin and strong ground game.

 

[The Oracle]

I got Lesner hes bigger, stronger and cardio is just as good if not, better. Carwin couldn't even knock him out, what's Cain got other than speed?

Gonzaga, hes got a chin and strong ground game.

Cain is technically much better on his feet than Brock. His cardio is off the charts and his wrestling is almost equal as well.

As for speed and what that has to do with it, see Edgar vs Penn.

Your other comment about Gonzaga having a strong chin. He's been TKO'd by JDS, Carwin and Werdum so he's not exactly unknockoutable.

 

[kirmit129]

I have money on Cain but I'm looking forward to either man against Junior Dos Santos next.

 

[bowser]

Cain's cardio is going to be zapped when he's grounded and pounded it out.

Technique isn't going to matter cause Carwin was hitting Brock with everything he had flushed and Brock ate it like a True Champ.

Speeds almost negated when it's only a matter of time when Broack grabs Cain. the octagon is looking smaller when you got 510 lbs of heavyweights vs. 310lbs of lightweights.

Cain's doesn't have enough power to knock out Lesner when he does hit him.

 

[dj1470]

Brock Lesnar vs. Cain Velasquez ~ Velasquez 3rd rd TKO just because I hate Lesnar and everything he's about
Martin Kampmann vs. Jake Shields ~ Shields 1st rd KO (KOTN) and he's the first real threat to GSP in a while
Diego Sanchez vs. Paulo Thiago ~ Sanchez 3rd rd TKO (FOTN) and he gets back on track
Matt Hamill vs. Tito Ortiz ~ Hamill by unanimous as he punishes a washed up Tito for 3 rds
Gabriel Gonzaga vs. Brendan Schaub ~ Gonzaga 2nd rd KO just to big, strong, and fast for ex-NFLer Schaub

 

[Captain Fantastic]

Cain is technically much better on his feet than Brock. His cardio is off the charts and his wrestling is almost equal as well.

As for speed and what that has to do with it, see Edgar vs Penn.

Agree with the striking, especially his underrated kicks and levels/angles. From what we've heard, his cardio is amazing - but we've never really seen it tested, especially against a beast like Brock. Have to disagree with the wrestling part though - Brock was an NCAA champion and runner-up in his two years at Minnesota. Cain never finished higher than 4th against lesser competition. And 30+ pounds will make a BIG difference.

The key for Cain will be keeping proper distance and staying under control. Carwin let the moment get to him and closed the distance too soon after rocking Lesnar early, allowing his power to be nullified by Brock's scrambling/grabbing. He should have picked Brock apart instead of trying to smother and smash him. The adrenaline overload finished Carwin after that.

Your other comment about Gonzaga having a strong chin. He's been TKO'd by JDS, Carwin and Werdum so he's not exactly unknockoutable.

"Unknockoutable" - I love it. Gonzaga's a big tease. He has all the tools, but he's lacking a toolbox. I think he beats Schaub, who doesn't have enough experience or skills yet - and has a questionable chin himself.

Hamill vs. Tito? Whatever - they should have done a pro wrestling "master vs. student" storyline to make it interesting. Go Matt, go! Ground and pound TKO and then a Chuck v. Tito sunset match.

Sanchez is too small at welterweight and had no chance against BJ Penn (who in turn was schooled by Frankie Edgar) so he's stuck without a viable weight class. Plus he's too mechanical. That being said, I think he can beat Thiago, who has been wildly inconsistent (and lucky v. Koscheck.)

Jake Shields should put on a grappling clinic vs. the well-rounded Kampmann. I was shocked at how good Shields' chin was vs. Hendo, so I doubt the Dane's best (only?) chance at a win will happen.

Brock by ground and pound. I think Cain's great and would handily beat any other heavyweight in the world (except Fedor - yeah I'm still nuthuggin'!) and is a future heavyweight champ, but I think Brock is too big, strong and fast - plus he has big fight/event experience that cannot be underestimated. Lesnar's takedowns are second only to GSP in MMA.

Plus there are some really good fights on the preliminary card: Cote v. Lawlor, Stout v. Taylor, Camozzi v. Yang.

Brock Lesnar vs. Cain Velasquez ~ Velasquez 3rd rd TKO just because I hate Lesnar and everything he's about

What?!? You don't say... I don't believe you!

 

[dj1470]

The troubling thing for Cain is he will probably have to beat Lesnar twice in a row or even 3 out of his next 4 fights to retain the title.
If Lesnar loses this weekend Dana will immediately give him a rematch and if Cain beats Lesnar again Dana will undoubtably turn Lesnar around within a year to fight for the title again.
Dana knows who his big American meal ticket is.
For all intents and purposes Cain Velasquez really has no chance here.

 

[The Oracle]

Agree with the striking, especially his underrated kicks and levels/angles. From what we've heard, his cardio is amazing - but we've never really seen it tested, especially against a beast like Brock. Have to disagree with the wrestling part though - Brock was an NCAA champion and runner-up in his two years at Minnesota. Cain never finished higher than 4th against lesser competition. And 30+ pounds will make a BIG difference.
)

Going to have to disagree with you about the wrestling comparison between them.

They both wrestled in university at different times and from what Rogan said on a telecast Brock did not have the same level of competition that Cain had during his competitive years.

 

[Captain Fantastic]

Going to have to disagree with you about the wrestling comparison between them.

They both wrestled in university at different times and from what Rogan said on a telecast Brock did not have the same level of competition that Cain had during his competitive years.

We'll have to agree to disagree. Stephen Neal (along with Carlton Haselrig, Kurt Angle and Kerry McCoy) was one of the best to wrestle at heavyweight in the last 25+ years and he barely beat Brock Lesnar 3-2.

Cole Konrad is one of Lesnar's training partners and he beat Velasquez four of five times they wrestled. Lesnar regularly handles Konrad fairly easily. That's good enough for me.

While I love his passion for MMA, Joe Rogan is not an authority on NCAA or World Championship-level wrestling by any stretch.

 

[dj1470]

Going to have to disagree with you about the wrestling comparison between them.

They both wrestled in university at different times and from what Rogan said on a telecast Brock did not have the same level of competition that Cain had during his competitive years.

Dude, be careful you are quoting and believing what Joe Rogan says.
It's not like your listening to Randy Couture or Bas Rutten. Guys who kind of have a decent knowledge of MMA.
I know he's a decent color man on telecasts but remember Rogan is the douchebag from Fear Factor and some dubious standup comedy.

 

[Social Gent]

Lesnar vs Velasquez...... Velasquez. I think his quickness and great gas tank will prevail as he drags Lesnar into a 5 round GnP victory.

Kampmann vs Shields..... Shields. Shields does what he does best and get this to the ground where he grinds out a decision.

Sanchez vs Thiago......... Thiago. Sanchez hasn't improved in a while and Thiago will catch him with a third round sub.

Hamill vs Ortiz...............Hamill. Ortiz's act is wearing a little thin and Hamill will gas him out and finish him in the third.

Gonzaga vs Schaub....... Schaub. Gonzaga looks better on paper but never seems to deliver whereas Schaub trains at a great camp and is always improving. 2nd round KO.

Lesnar will rock Velasquez. Lesnar's size and strength will prove to be too dominant. Velasquez's chance however will come with his feet, as delivering kicks is something that Lesnar has yet to face any real challenge of in the Octagon. Look for Velasquez to charge hard, much as Carwin did, to try and catch Brock off his game. Outside of that flurry and the kicking game, Lesnar will dominate this match and smash out a 4XL Glove size victory.

Shields, guaranteed. He is going to show why he was the undisputed Strikeforce champion.

Thiago. See The Oracle's reasons above.

Ortiz get's my vote in his match against Hamill. I just see Tito being able to pull through. However, I must say that I would hope that (especially against the "Huntington Beach Bad Boy") Hamill pulls off the one thing that only he can do in the Octagon; hit a guy blatantly after the bell. I mean, like, it's not as though Hamill can hear it

Schaub gets my vote as well. Gonzaga is almost falling the way of the UFC heavyweight circa UFC 18 - 50's. A flash of greatness, and then simply becoming a stepping-stone for an up and commer.

 

[Social Gent]

They both wrestled in university at different times and from what Rogan said on a telecast Brock did not have the same level of competition that Cain had during his competitive years.

Oracle, read through your statement one more time...
BLN would call you a ZZ, or, a Zuffa Zombie.
Like Brock said during the UFC 121 preview (and paraphrasing here), "Yeah, Cain may have wrestled, but he certainly wasn't a NCAA Div-1 Champion!"

Stephen Neal (along with Carlton Haselrig, Kurt Angle and Kerry McCoy) was one of the best to wrestle at heavyweight in the last 25+ years and he barely beat Brock Lesnar 3-2.

...

While I love his passion for MMA, Joe Rogan is not an authority on NCAA or World Championship-level wrestling by any stretch.

Last in first out: Joe Rogan is an idiot.
Next, there is a rumour, and it is commonly backed by many of the sports entertainers who were on the roster at the time; Brock used to think very highly of himself during his WWE days, a little cocky perhaps because he was the big man AND an NCAA champion. In an impromptu match in the back, he was HUMBLED by Kurt Angle.

Dude, be careful you are quoting and believing what Joe Rogan says.
It's not like your listening to Randy Couture or Bas Rutten. Guys who kind of have a decent knowledge of MMA.
I know he's a decent color man on telecasts but remember Rogan is the douchebag from Fear Factor and some dubious standup comedy.

Hahaha, absolutely fantastic!
Rogan is also no Bruce Beck!




I love Brock Lesnar as a fighter, I think he is fantastic. Not in any sort of technical way like a Randy Couture, but just the way he carries himself and the excitement he brings, he is just fantastic.

And like Lesnar said, "Cain, after I beat you, I'm going to drink a Corona and have a Burrito... For your heritage!"

 

[islandman4567]

And like Lesnar said, "Cain, after I beat you, I'm going to drink a Corona and have a Burrito... For your heritage!"

whenever he says this kind of stuff I always think to myself what a jackass he is. He's the antithesis of what a classy champion should be. I can't bring myself to want to see a guy like him win.

Guys like GSP, Fedor , Jon Jones , to me are what true budo is. That's what MA teachers should teach their students to emulate. Guys like Lesnar and Ortiz that dis their opponents , I always like to see get KO'd. Of course , I do understand that the public persona could be completely different than how the guy truly is in day to day life.

 

[Captain Fantastic]

Next, there is a rumour, and it is commonly backed by many of the sports entertainers who were on the roster at the time; Brock used to think very highly of himself during his WWE days, a little cocky perhaps because he was the big man AND an NCAA champion. In an impromptu match in the back, he was HUMBLED by Kurt Angle.

I think this is more than just a rumour at this point - enough people have publicly spoken about it. But it also illustrates the difference between a World + Olympic Champion and an NCAA Champion - and a man vs. a relative boy in terms of real strength, experience and maturity, as Kurt would have been in his early-to-mid 30s and Brock early-to-mid 20s, as this occurred shortly after Brock came up to the WWE roster full-time.

Funny aside: a little while later and still in WWE, Kurt Angle was schooled on national television by a relative unknown named Daniel Puder, a 'Tough Enough' alum who happened to train at AKA in San Jose. Puder - who is now a semi-full time MMA fighter - put Angle in a Kimura and the referee had to fake a pinfall to keep Kurt from tapping or being injured. That - and a long history of injuries - quickly put to rest any ideas Angle had of switching to MMA on a permanent basis.

 

[Cobster]

Lesnar's sheer size will do it for him, along with his wrestling.
Hate the guy, but he's one big fuckin beast.

I'd like to see Cain win though.

 

[Captain Fantastic]

whenever he says this kind of stuff I always think to myself what a jackass he is. He's the antithesis of what a classy champion should be. I can't bring myself to want to see a guy like him win.

Guys like GSP, Fedor , Jon Jones , to me are what true budo is. That's what MA teachers should teach their students to emulate. Guys like Lesnar and Ortiz that dis their opponents , I always like to see get KO'd. Of course , I do understand that the public persona could be completely different than how the guy truly is in day to day life.

I hear where you're coming from - but you (the MA/MMA purist) are only a small segment of the UFC's audience. UFC is a business and there is a whole entertainment aspect that has to be taken into account. Lesnar, Tito, Koscheck and a few others "get it" and play the "heel" to draw just the sort of reaction you show above ("Guys like Lesnar and Ortiz that dis their opponents , I always like to see get KO'd.")

Since there are few truly charismatic fighters who are "nice" - and many who can't or don't speak English - the only way UFC can get the 1 million+ PPV buys and be a multi-billion dollar company is to create compelling storylines. Good vs. Bad/Evil is fundamental.

From all I've heard, Lesnar is a quiet guy who keeps to himself in real life. Koscheck is a gregarious but down to Earth guy who makes time for almost everyone. It would appear that they're playing a role and channeling their inner asshole (or just removing their veneer of civility) to get the casual fan to pay attention. And apparently doing a damn good job at it, judging by the reactions.

I totally hear what you're saying - most people don't understand the business aspect and only see the made-for-TV asshole that disses his opponent and who is successful and rewarded. That can be dangerous and unfortunate because young folks might try to emulate this behaviour without the context, thus removing the fundamental respect portion of combat sports/martial arts. But I think that most of the top MA/MMA schools weed out the assholes anyway...


One final thing: I'm not sure I would include Jon Jones in your "good guy" list just yet - he's said a few things of late that make me think he's getting a bit of an ego. Or he could just be trying to use the heel template to hasten his elevation to the main event/LHW title picture...

 

[Social Gent]

Island man, I just wanted to put it out there for you that I am a martial arts purist - this has, potentially, led to at least one debate between myself and Manji.
I never liked Tito as a fighter, but as a person, wow, is he a great guy. Perhaps one of the best for fan interactions in the MMA world.

As for Captain Fantastic, yes, Lesnar is one of the most introverted guys out there in MMA. He refuses to let anyone know anything about his life. He is the Kevin Spacey of MMA.

 

[islandman4567]

I understand the showmanship of the game , and the trash talking to hype a fight , and the need for villains with character to polarize the crowd. That's why I said what I did about public and personal life being two different people.

The main reason I never liked Tito was for his disrespecting his opponents after he's won. He was a training partner of Tank Abbott's as well, and I wasn't a big fan of his either. Tank KO'd a guy in one of the early UFC's and the guy was having a seizure , and what does Tank do ? he starts mocking the guy , I mean , shit like that's uncalled for.

Tank was no MA , just a no class street thug. I really don't think that guy was playing a role.


I guess its pretty obvious which fighters I'll be cheering for tomorrow. I doubt Cain can pull it off , but I'd love to see him win. I wanted to see Carwin beat the crap out of Lesnar but he didn't pace himself properly. I hope he gets another crack at it since he's been the only one so far that's been able to stand with Brock.

 

[Social Gent]

IM,
Tito was a training partner of Abbott's for a very VERY short period of time.
Tank had a wrestling pedigree, though very few knew about it. Nothing to the level of Randy Couture's, obviously, but nonetheless. Tank was Tank though, and that's why people liked him. He brought it every time, and didn't back down. He fought on two weeks notice, and would show up willing to fight on a day's notice.
As per the fight you are thinking of, it was David's first fight in the Octagon. It was against John Matua. Matua had done a lot, and I MEAN A LOT of trash talking in the days leading up to the fight. Some would even say Matua got, albeit more than, what he deserved.
Tank didn't have class, and he was a street thug. He wasn't playing a role, he was being himself through and through.

The matua fight can be seen in the first clip of this highlight reel from Sherdog.com - and I am one of the few people who has ALL of Sherdog's highlight reels before they got taken down from their website years ago (though this is not my youtube posting).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uqgd3WDyh7k