Obsession Massage

Toronto and the renaissance of American Cities

vidi vici veni

Pedantic Lurker
Aug 17, 2001
287
0
0
Across the Rubicon
Interesting that while Toronto still seems on a slippery slope downwards - thank you Mike Harris for the megacity! - american cities, as described in the following Globe and Mail column, are undergoing a renaissance.

Everytime I pass by the hoardings on Yonge near Dundas, I wonder how that redevelopment is going to work out. Will the park-to-be on the southeast corner turn out to be yet another hangout for drug dealers and drug runners, the mentally-ill, and out-and-out bums? I fear that may be so.

I wonder too why our parks are not fenced off. Close'm up at night so the riff-raff can't settle in. I believe that when Allan Gardens opened early in the century, there was a fence around the whole thing. Not so now. Oh yeah, we are so much wiser than those who came before.

vvv

"By John Ibbitson
Friday, June 28, 2002
WASHINGTON - When I first arrived in Washington a year ago, I was nervous. Like many Canadians, I held a late-night-newscast image of American cities: of fires and shootings, of abandoned, burnt-out downtowns, of corrupt or incompetent local politicians, of angry ghettoes and gated enclaves.

"It's a chronic, low-level civil war," a friend explained a decade ago, as we sat in a Houston restaurant complete with shotgun-toting security guard.

Yet the Washington apartment I looked at last July was very fine, though horribly expensive, and the street was leafy and calm. Since Americans love to talk, especially Americans in bars, I wandered to the nearest one and asked the bartender what he thought of the address. Before long, the whole place was involved in a spirited discussion of recent Washington history.

"Five years ago, I wouldn't have gone near that street after dark."

"But not now."

"No, it's fine now. Lucky guys who bought there 10 years ago…."

One fellow put down his beer and declared: "We're taking this city back, one block at a time."

More than any other thing since I arrived here, I have been astonished by the revival of American downtowns, especially Washington. Formerly run-down neighbourhoods are burgeoning. With a good new civic administration, sensible investments in infrastructure and plummeting crime rates, decades of population decline in the District of Columbia have finally been reversed, and formerly derelict streets are turning into the hottest addresses in town. [snip]

Yet, though urban renewal is hardly a zero-sum game, it has its winners and losers. After the Martin Luther King riots of 1968 damaged or destroyed most of the east side of downtown, much of the remainder of the middle-class fled, and poor black and Hispanic families filled the void. Now, as rents and property-taxes skyrocket, they are under increasing pressure to move out. Owners enjoy a capital gain windfall, but for renters, only the landlord profits.
Still, if a city must have a problem, this is the problem to have. Cities need solid tax bases if they are to revive their urban cores. Only middle-class taxpayers can provide that base. One local told the Washington Post that he had surprised himself by phoning city hall to complain about his garbage pickup. Five years ago, he said, garbage pickup was so erratic that it wasn't worth the bother to protest.[snip]

The renewal of Washington and other American cities faces, however, one severe obstacle: the schools. Right now, single professionals and childless couples are driving the boom. Families mostly stay away. Too many inner-urban schools suffer from unqualified teachers, run-down facilities, low test scores.

The great urban challenge across America this decade will be to recover the inner-city public education system. The solution is obvious: good governance, infrastructure investment, a commitment by the community to invest and improve. Many cities across the United States are dissolving their school boards and putting the schools under the direct supervision of mayors of governors. It's a good first step.

There are other things to be done: the decline of Washington's downtown left it with a shortage of cinemas and department stores. Both are essential to a thriving inner city. And D.C. remains a city of islands, of revived neighbourhoods separated by no-man's-lands. There are still wide swaths of the city that are virtually uninhabited. And the racial divide between poor, black south-east and rich, white north-west remains. Washington is still two cities.

But obsessing on the challenges can keep us from appreciating how far we have come. On a fine Saturday evening, walking through Dupont after dinner, the streets alive with people, the gracious Victorian townhomes bathed in the streetlights, it is possible to believe that Washington has returned, that this is a city with a thrilling future before it, that this is a city it is possible to love."
 

iguana

New member
Mar 13, 2002
476
0
0
59
TO
Toronto doesn't have to revive like US cities because it never had the urban decay experienced in most US cities. Sure Dundas and Yonge has it's share of young jerks and older whack jobs. That's why I never set foot in the Eaton Cnetre..but most of downtown is actually quite decent..what with all the condo/lofty people moving downtown etc.
 

mr. x

Member
Aug 17, 2001
426
1
18
torontos past success was somewhat of a fluke... here are a few thoughts to consider:

toronto never had the major problems with downtown crime and the exodus to the suburbs because of:

1. the fact that, unlike the US , we did not have a large black population - had we been part of the US, we might have experiences the influx of blacks from the south that cities like Detroit has in the 1920s. (this is not to blame the blacks - but discrimiation and other factors lead to the exodus of whites and the creation of a black urban underclass - and ghettoes)

2. benign neglect - in the US, the federal government spent a forutne on the interste system - which cut expressways into the cities - making urban spawl much easier. here - there were all sorts of plans for expressways made by the Metro roads department - but neither the federal government or the province would pay for them.

3. our lower standard of living - car ownership in canada was lower - and the cost of gasoline higher - meaning that people were more dependent on public transit, which brings us to -

4. the TTC. unlike US cities, the tTC remained publically owned. in the US, GM bought up many transit systems, and converted them to buses - and then the whole system would fall to bits. the tTC was not perfect - they wanted to eliminate streetcars entirely in the late 60s - but at that time we were one of the few cities that still had them! public ownership of the tTC allowed it to build a subway to liminate the bus congestion on yonge street - the subway helped to keep the downtown and older suburbs alive and vital.

5. immigration. while my arguments elsewhere were for us to reduce immigration, immgration did provide a supply of people to come and live in downtown neighbourhoods when it was not fashionable.

6. jets. toronto bypassed montreal because of the jet airplane - and aviation in general. no longer was it necessary for people and goods to move by ship (or rail - the main railway lines from montreal to the west actually bypass toronto) - this allowed toronto to expand and prosper at a time when there was the scourge of -

7. quebec nationalism. the FLQ, quebec language laws, the PQ, etc. caused an exodus of anglophones and businesses to Toronto over the last 40 years.

so, the irony here is that toronto is not so much a great place to live because we are so smart - but because of so many lucky circumstances that have kept this city vibrant...

but, at the same time, we are no longer the example for other cities that we once were - the americans finally wised up to tthe importance of cities and have been spending money on transit and devolving power to cities when the upper levels of government here have been treating toronto as a cash cow, downloading costs and have been dictating local policy...

examples include the sheppard subway (there was much opposition - the province pushed it through) forced amalgamation, cutbacks in funding for transit, downloading the costs for public housing, inadequate funding for schools, changes to property taxes that see taxes on commecial properties pooled - that is transferred away from toronto, etc.

there is also the ontario municpal board, which can over-ride decisions made by council.

one of the resons why toronto was successful was because of the creation of metro - there is no such body to co-oridinate devlopment/transit/programs/ etc. over the GTA - nor does the province want any such body these days.

my point is that we have been so full of ourselves about what a great city this is (and it is a great place to live, mind you) but we have become complacent, and the current mayor has done little to prepare this city for the future...

one big problem is our parliamentary system - in the US, they say all politics is local - because each congressman etc. is elected pretty much as an individual, and the party system is weak, beyond raisoing money. here - mps and mpps are pretty powerless because so much power is concentrated in the hands of the PM or the provincial premier...

i am not optimistic!
 
Last edited:

mandrill

Well-known member
Aug 23, 2001
75,908
85,443
113
Anyone who thinks Toronto is on the 'slippery slope' or US cities are reviving should visit Chicago - supposedly the giant pearl of America's midwest! i went there a couple of years ago and thought I'd get a Toronto-like experience. WRONG!

Open racism. Total rust-out of roads and other public amenities. Few or no cafes and bars located outside tourist hotels downtown. And a really nasty 'hard-edge' on the people and the entire city.

I suspect Chicago's a fun place if you know people and live in the 'burbs. (In many US cities, the burbs were actually built in the '20's and are more like Yonge and Avenue road or St Clair and Bathurst than Richmond Hill).

But as for 'urban revival', LOLOLOLOL!!!
 

sorely

New member
Sep 10, 2001
1,994
1
0
Chicagoland

The Chicago core is lovely. Mayor Daley has spent wisely and created a very liveable corridor from south of the LOOP to the top of Lincoln Park and from the lake west about 2 miles.

The parks, museums, brownstone areas,music establishments and architecture are truly amazing.

Chicago benefited greatly from the Fire in 1871; a chance to start over.

The transit system is old but it moves more than a million people daily in a fairly efficient manner.

The burbs are lovely but are too sterile,too white and too far away. You can't enjoy the downtown. It's worse than living in Oakville.

Chicago has some ugly areas; South State Street, parts of the Westside, what's left of Cabrini Green and a few pockets in the north end before Evanston.

Lincoln Park is fantastic and makes the Annex and CabbageTown look like poor cousins.

As much as I get upset with Americans they have some marvellous cities with great resources.

Chicago is a great experience for a while.

Toronto is much better because it is full of CANADIANS.

HAPPY CANADA DAY !
 
Last edited:

james t kirk

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2001
24,045
3,915
113
First off, let me say that i think that Toronto is a great place to live.

Mr. X is absolutly correct when he states that the interstate highway system lead to the destruction of the American inner city.

What he missed was that the american gov't set up a department of housing that began issuing low interest mortgage rates after WW2 to bring people into the suburbs. What is not generally known was that that bureau was RASCIST to the core. Whites could sign up for mortgages, blacks were basically laughed at.

There was a time when it was commonly thought that the suburbs would be where people lived, and that efficient transit systems (interstates, expressways, etc.) would "whisk" commuters into the downtown business core and back home to the suburbs by 6 for dinner with biff and muffy.

When i was a kid, that's what i believed, that cities should design themselves around the efficient movement of the automobile.

Now, i firmly believe that nothing could be further from the truth.

Case in point - Hamilton Ontario.

With it's one way streets, traffic movement is a dream. You can drive from one end of town to the other in about 15 minutes just keeping on the gas at about 60 kph. However, what this has done is turn city streets into expressways and make living in the burbs so much easier.

Hamilton's downtown used to be pretty nice at one time (in the 50's and back) but the one way street system, combined with the 60's mentality of living in the burbs utterly destroyed their downtown core.

The good citizens of hamilton have tried the "American fix" to their downtown core. I.e. the big ticket that will turn everything around. First it was Lloyd D Jackson square, the arena, revamping gore park (it was perfect before it was turned into a bus depot) thinking that the big ticket fix would "turn around" downtown. Nothing could have been further from the truth.

The truth of the matter is that a successful inner city depends on people LIVING there, not some stupid shopping centre, or arena thinking that that will bring the people downtown.

You have to have a strong residential community in any inner city in order for the inner city to be viable.

It is not a question of which comes first, the businesses draw the residents or the the residents draw the business. That is already known. You have to have people living in an inner city for it to thrive.

Toronto has avoided the pitfalls of Hamilton, Buffalo, Detroit because Toronto has always been a collection of neighbourhoods. Talk to someone from toronto and ask them where they live and you will hear, "the beaches, cabbagetown, bloor west village, the annex, leaside" These are areas within the city core that are have always thrived. Local rate payers groups have also contributed to the maintaining of neighbourhoods in toronto that other cities don't have.

Thank christ they killed the spadina expressway. That really saved the city. At one time, there were 11 expressways on the books for the city of toronto believe it or not.

Personally i would love to see the gardiner become a tunnel under the lake so that we could completely loose that eyesore (the mistake by the lake) I believe that there should be a gardiner TUNNEL complete with 407 style tolls to pay for it from essentially the humber to the DVP. Since mainly the 905 crowd uses the gardiner, they should pay for it logically, or at least those who use it.

The current provincial gov't is in transition. Mike harris and his lot were very anti-toronto, and they did pretty much everything they could to hand all the bullshit to toronto. It will be interesting to see where ernie eaves plays out on the toronto issue.

I would very much like to see some increased funding to the TTC specifically for new subway construction. The sheppard ave. subway is all well and good, but it should have been the eglinton ave subway that got built, not the sheppard if there could only be one line.

The talent is currently on hand to continue building subways in toronto. The engineers and constructors are in place

We need an eglinton line to the airport, a queen line from Sherway gardens to Vic Park and another north south line in the east end.

Toronto is a great place to live, with a vibrant inner city. But we can not sit back on our laurels orelse, it could decay. They have made mistakes in the past (the eaton center, the gardiner, harbourfront, atarateri, subways) but hopefully, we can learn.

My biggest fear is that the portlands will be killed just like they did to harbourfront. I have the feeling that the chineese guy that seems to be in charge wants to build a hong kong style BS development because that is all he knows.
 
Last edited:

mr. x

Member
Aug 17, 2001
426
1
18
kirk:

some good points there - i vaguely remeber hearing about the loan thing in the US - of course, we had CMHC loans here which similarly encouraged new suburban style construction (you see a lot of 1950 era 900 sf bungalows were built near yonge & sheppard, and in scarborough as part of this program)

the whole thing with public housing is a whole other story - the US went nuts building big housing projects int he city cores - Jane Jacobs critiqued this in her first major book. here - there was very little public housing built until the late 60s - regent park mainly around 1950 - and seniors housing. when we built housing projects, most of them were in the suburbs - like jane finch.

the thin about toronto being a city of neighbourhoods is a bit of a joke - most cities are. look at chicago - it had/has some great areas - oak park is fantastic - frank lloyd wright houses everywhere. even buffalo has some nice old neighbourhoods.

often, where toronto has succeeded, or avoided some costly mistakes, has been because of grass roots opposition to things like the spadina expressway, the eaton cente (the earlier versions were like the tD centre - with old city hall demolished and replaced by office towers in an empty plaza), metro centre (imagine st. james town in the railway lands - where ACC and skydome are) and as i mentioned, the TTC wanting to ditch streetcars in 1968.

the thing about one way streets is right on the money - they are disasterous - look at richmond and adelaide here in tO, for example - not streets for walking on for sure.

i would take issue with the building of more subways. the tTC is kindf of like hydro was regarding nuclear power - a bureaucracy that has a one track mind that would spend a fortune on white elephants.

subways are extremely expensive - and require high volume levels to justify the expense - the sheppard subway makes little sense in this reard - mel baby pushed it because he was required to improve transit to yonge/sheppard in order to continue with building his downtown north york vision - which he has abandoned as megacity mayor.

subways, and plans for a rail link to the airport, are nuts. what is needed is to build up a netowrk of streetcar type LRTs through the suburbs and into the 905 region.

the star did a study a year - and they sent a reporter to cross the GTA by public transit - it took him several hours to do what would take less than an hour by car!

the idea of an LRT system has been around for a while - gO looked at it and abandoned it - but the TTC is so intent on subways that the idea never gets a hearing.

the advantage is that it can run at grade, in the median of a roadway (like spadina lrt), elevated (like the stupid scarborough lrt), or in tunnels (like a subway - the spadian lrt does this at bloor) - in fact, one line can switch as needed - and with overhead wires, there is no need to fence it off.

for example, instead of extending the spadina subway through the low-density industrial areas of downsview so that the subway goes to York U (this is one of the TTC's priorities ofr future exansion) a much cheaper LRT line could be built to do the same thing - or alternatively an LRT line could go from yonge/finch station to York U along the hydro corridor. for the cost of the subway exapnsion, you could do both and probably have a pile of cash left over!

there is even talk of extending the subway line up to vuaghan - what madlness!
 

iguana

New member
Mar 13, 2002
476
0
0
59
TO
I think that subway thinking is 100+ year thinking. In that regard Eglinton and south of 401 could definitely use subways. i visited Seoul Korea in 1997, then 2001, and they had built 4 new lines with about 80 new stations in that time. i know it's a big city, lots of people..but public transit of the London, New York, Seoul type would be a great long term vision.

As for outside of city core, LRT all the way. And I agree with James, LRT to Pearson. Also an LRT loop from Kipling out through Mississauga and back would be a good idea. Bury the Gardiner at whatever cost. I grew up in 905, and I think 905'er take a huge advantage of Toronto by working here but not living here. Tax 'em.

Chicago is great, but Toronto more livable. I agree that we're a great city largely by accident, as is Canada. If we were going on brains alone (no resources) we'd be a developing country. Canadian politicians don't have the resolve to make Canada the great country it could be.
 

james t kirk

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2001
24,045
3,915
113
I am not so sure that toronto is a great city largely by accident.

I work with the City boys on a regular basis (consulting), and i can honestly say that there are some pretty talented and dedicated people at the City. Sure there's some dead wood and lots of buraucracy, but the guys in the nuts and bolts end of things are a pretty good lot.

Over the years, there has been a lot of men and women with vision who have acted on that vision to build that which we live on today.

RC Harris, Fred Gardiner, Nathan Philips, these were guys who truly helped build this city. People often don't think about the incredible sacrifices that were made in the past so that this city could become what it has.

With regard to the subway, i can tell you from first hand knowledge that the cost of the sheppard subway is 100 milllion dollars per km. No joke. the cost is in the stations with the youne and sheppard station ringing in at just below 200 million. Bosarian is the cheapest i believe at around 35 million. The tunnels were completed a long time ago, and were around 80 million (i could be off on that one)

Anyway, there are abandoned railway corridors in the city which could easily be used for at grade rail transit at substantially lower costs than subways. They have the perfect grades and setup and are urban. Most of the bridges would have to be replaced. GO transit i believe has studied this in the past, but i haven't read the report and i don't know what their conclusions were. There are also active rail lines which could be leased from CN and CP. The Newmarket and Weston lines (CNR) in the City's west end for example come to mind. The newmarket line runs from union station to Newmarket, in fact it used to run to North Bay at one time. It cuts through parkdale then hooks west and is just east of york city centre by Eglinton. A perfect tie in for any eglinton subway.

Some of these rail lines have been turned into hiking grounds, which i don't know how easy it would be to use them for at grade subways.

Also there is the CNR Bala line that runs from Union Station north to Keele and 7, in fact running to parry sound and again north bay. The portion south of 7 is rarely used, except by go transit. In fact, GO is in discussion to buy this line from CNR. Again, a perfect north south route at minimal cost to build.

Mel baby pushed hard for the sheppard line but the rumours i heard made more sense than anything. It's quite simple. Mel and his rich developer friends were / are speculating on Sheppard for quite some time. Mel had assured them that their investments in NY would hit pay dirt when the sheppard was built. The rumour is is that Mel's life was on the line. If sheppard didn't go through, there were going to be alot of pissed off mafia types out there who wouldn't be too pleased with old Mel

Again, purely rumour, but interesting none the less. God only knows how much mel baby himself speculated on sheppard.

Eglinton always made WAAAYYYYY more sense than sheppard, but for some reason, sheppard got built.

In my eyes, the next big thing is going to be the portlands. This is a chance to build an entire neighbourhood. I am thinking i have to start finding out more and going to the public meetings for fear that the developers will push hard for another idiotic harbour front. I would love to see some really iteresting and traditional architecture. Squares, narrow streets, parkettes, fountains, cobble stone roads, maximum 3 or 4 stories, no cars in some areas. Residntial housing, Street cars. No 40 story condo box spandrel glass bullshit. I am thinking Edinborough, Old Quebec City, etc. Look at the areas where people hang out in toronto, college street, queen street, bloor street, etc. No-one hangs out at harbour front.

i had no idea that there were plans at one time to tear down old city hall. Talk about idiots. I did know that in 1968, there was very serious talk about tearing down union station. Now that would have been a complete disaster. Architecture to me is what you see from the ground up to about 30 or 40 feet. The so called street scape. Any fool with a pencil and ruler could architect the TD Tower, or any other glass box. Try designing a gothic church. Now that's architecure to marvel at.
 
Last edited:

sorely

New member
Sep 10, 2001
1,994
1
0
Mies might not agree with your comment about the TD Centre; however, I think that Frank Lloyd Wright would .
 
Toronto

This is fascinating reading.
I'm not sure if I'm old or what but I think Toronto has declined over the last ten years. There is too much construction. The Yonge Dundas park is taking forever.
The young people, epecially on the subway, are scarier than before. The middle class is vanishing.
Living and working in the city doesn't compare favourably to the suburbs. The average commute is 65 minutes.
Oh by the way, my apartment in TORONTO is for now up for sale. I'm leaving the city for good!
 

mr. x

Member
Aug 17, 2001
426
1
18
ironically - the TD centre is one of the finest buildings in the city - and not just a "glass box" like the others.

mies van der rohe was a world reknowned architect - and while he had a very simple grid based classicism for much of his design, he was a believer "god is in the details". go into the banking pavillion - it is one of the most beautiful rooms in the city. similarly, the plaza is quite nice - but one plaza like that is enough for the downtown.

funny thing about the TD centre is that only a few of the buildings are to mies designs - there is a similar building on the south side of wellington built later, and then the monstrosity they plopped on top of the old stock exchange - all because the idea of a building being part of the TD centre added so much to the rental value!

what happened was that, as all too often happens, the work of a genius is taken by others and copied and mutilated into something different. the "Glass box" was cheap to build and developers took it and ran and made a lot of cash... similarly, le corbusier made the use of poured/exposed concrete acceptable - his buildings are fantastic and creative - but it allowed others to create such drek as the maulife centre, husdons bay centre, the convenrtion centre, etc.
 

sorely

New member
Sep 10, 2001
1,994
1
0
Mies, a Berliner, spent the last portion of his life in Chicago where there are many of his buildings and apartments. Next time you are there,check out the IBM building on the north side of the Chicago River , across from the Loop. It looks just like the original TD-Centre buildings.

Mies' grave in Chicago is a simple piece of granite lying flat on the ground with only his name and dates.

As in life "Less is more."
 

mandrill

Well-known member
Aug 23, 2001
75,908
85,443
113
Guys,

You have been reading WAY too many Bauhaus fanzines!

Besides, PoMo is way cooler than Structuralism. Kitsch rules!
 

mr. x

Member
Aug 17, 2001
426
1
18
oagre said:
Guys,

You have been reading WAY too many Bauhaus fanzines!

Besides, PoMo is way cooler than Structuralism. Kitsch rules!
man , you have me pegged - i love whacking off to the centrefold if its a chair made of bent steel tubes and leather!
 
J

Jay_toronto

You cant affix a commuting tax to the 905, Hazel McCallion and her minions would scream like banshees all the way to Queen's Park. Remember what happened when Mike Harris dumped social programs on to the municipalities, the 905 became rabid when asked to pick up some of the cost for the social services that the 416 area is responsible for. It's this "what's in it for me" mentality that threatens to destroy our city.

I've visited several US cities and for me there is no comparison, however some very bad mistakes have been made. The building of the Eaton Centre and the development of the harbourfront have been total disasters. I wont even begin to elaborate on the consequences of these projects.
 

Citizen Kane

New member
Jun 21, 2002
24
0
0
Toronto
A Timely Topic

This is an intriguing topic. I was just talking to someone about Toronto vs. American cities the other day.

Toronto is starting to remind me of NYC in the late 1970s/early 1980s. NYC then was a disaster area. I think that T.O. is starting to fray around the edges - both in services and infrastructure, and socially (sidewalk spitters are just one example of decline).

One of the big problems is that billions- yes, billions! - of dollars of tax revenues are siphoned out of Toronto and transferred to other parts of the country. The Toronto Star published an article within the last few weeks that estimated T.O.'s forgone tax revenues, and it was mind-blowing! Imagine the quality of services and infrastructure we *could* have in T.O. if the tax dollars that were earned here *stayed* here.

I wrote my local Councillor urging him to fight for T.O.'s share of taxes. On another point, Paul Martin recently said that cities should have more powers to tax. I think that's wrong. Who can afford to pay more in taxes? You? I firmly believe that we Torontonians should retain more - and preferably all - of the tax dollars we produce here.

- Citizen Kane
 

luckyjackson

Active member
Aug 19, 2001
1,505
2
38
This is a topic I'm very interested in, but know little about, so thanks guys - your posts have been read with interest.

I remember hearing on CBC, (couple of years back now), that the city was putting together a plan to greatly increase the pop density within 416. They were talking about major infrastructure upgrades that would encourage more people to live in the city proper. This would apparently revitalize the core and slow the expansion of those cookie cutter developments we see springing up on what was beautiful landscape just outside the city. Sounded like a very good idea to me. Paris is like that, where you can travel for huge distances and always be in a very urban densely populated environment. It's amazing to see the character of the neighbourhoods change from area to area and you are never more than 500 meters from a subway stop.

I don't wish to step on the toes of anyone who likes living the 905 area - but I really have a hard time understanding their preference. Sure my wife and I could have a bigger place by moving out of the city, but we always ask ourselves "Why", when the things we want to be close to are all in the center? (Except for the MPs of course! In fact, that's the single biggest source of mileage on my car - getting to and back from the MPs!
 

Citizen Kane

New member
Jun 21, 2002
24
0
0
Toronto
More Thoughts on Toronto

Just wanted to add a few more thoughts that have been rattling around my cantelopue.

1. The downloading of services on Toronto has been a disaster for the City. That, and the 1997 amalgamation. I've heard that costs have *increased* as a result of Amalgamation rather than decreasing. In part due to rising labour and contract costs to achieve parity. Downloading public housing onto the City is another huge expense we didn't want or ask for.

2. Toronto acts as a magnet for immigrants, some of whom need special services, such as English as Second Language, etc. Perhaps it's a wash if the tax dollars they produce offset the cost of providing special services to them. I genuinely don't know.

On a related point, the Federal Government controls immigration, but allows immigrants to settle anywhere in the country. Something like 50% choose the GTA. This increases the demands on services and infrastructure, but the GTA doesn't receive adequate funding from the Feds to support the increased use.

3. As it stands now, the only big revenue lever that the City of Toronto has is to raise property taxes. Apparently under the current laws, only the Provincial Government can raise commercial tax rates on behalf of cities. So, Toronto residents bear a disproportionate burden of the cost of city services. Businesses appear to get a break.

That said, it appears that Toronto commercial taxes might yet be too high. Consider how many businesses have left the City of Toronto (what used to be Metro Toronto) for Mississauga and surrounding areas.

In conclusion, I think that Toronto must renegotiate - hard - with the Province and the Federal Government in order to get more direct control. Councillor Michael Walker has been slowly pushing to get "Charter City" status for T.O. and I support him in this. Consider that the City of Toronto (formerly Metro Toronto) has a population of about 2.5-million people. That's greater than the populations of the four Maritime Provinces, or Manitoba plus Sask., or 80% of Alberta. We should become our own Province! Maitres chez nous!

- Citizen Kane
 
Last edited:

james t kirk

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2001
24,045
3,915
113
Separate from Ontario eh?

Well, if the current provincial gov't doesn't start helping out with some of the variable costs they gave to us, maybe that's not an impossible idea.

One other aspect you missed was the provincial gov't "giving" toronto the QEW between 427 and Lakeshore (notice it's now called the Gardiner)

Sorry i fail to see the benefit to Toronto in having to maintain that stretch of very expensive roadway and crumbling bridges for the use of the 905 gang.

I actually thought i had a brainstorm of an idea about a year ago -which was to install tolls on the Gardiner a la 407 style, only make it simpler.

The tolls would only be installed at the on ramps. Where you got off didn't matter, the cost would be the same. The second you got on the Gardiner or DVP you got a $2.00 toll, but only if you lived outside 416.

If you were 416, it would be free as usual since your taxes pay for the thing anyway. All 905'ers (who are the big users of the Gardiner) would be forced to pay 2 bucks a hit.

I emailed my idea to EVERY single councillor at City Hall and Lastman.

Do you wanna guess how many I heard back from?????

ONE (1)

Howard Moscoe sent me 1 sentence, "under provincial legislation, the City doesn't have the legal right to collect tolls"

All the rest couldn't even be bothered thinking about. Too busy plannig their next municiple conference in Banff at great expense to the tax payers of the city.

Oh yeah, Lastman responded too with a form letter.

What a joke of a council we have.

I figured 365 days a year, how many cars take the Gardiner every day, I am not sure, but I think my idea would be a cash cow for a cash starved city.
 
Toronto Escorts