The Fall of a non essential US Empire....

JJicq

Active member
Mar 24, 2003
457
42
28
Even with all the wasted money and posturing the UAW and other Unions around the US (primarily the Great Lakes States) most are often referred to as the "Swing States" it appears at this hour (10AM ET on 11/3) probable that Bush will indeed remain our/your President.

For this, I am pleased and while the decision IMHO required significant consideration, I believe as do the majority of Americans who decided to vote that, Mr. Bush is the best man for the job.

Note to all the Union folks out there, look in the mirror for answers and solutions to why plants are closing across the Great Lakes (IL, MI, MN, OH, PA, and WI) not to the President of the United States. Neither Mr. Bush, nor any President can undo the mess (high wages, lack of human productivity, outrageous benefit costs for current employees, resistance to cross-training, inefficient use of overtime money, dedicated trades and job duties etc…) you have created and sustained over the past two decades.

Five States I mentioned account for 75% of lost jobs in the US over the past 4 years, guess where the most heavily unionized workforces are in the US? Anyone care to take a guess as to which States have lost the most jobs since 2000?

Exactly in those same States I mentioned above and will identify again here IL, MI, MN, OH, PA, and WI
See for yourself, http://www.bls.gov/home.htm

Where there are Counties within States (Allegheny (PA), Cook (IL), Cuyahoga (OH), Hennepin (MN), Milwaukee (WI), Ramsey (WI), Sandusky (OH), St. Louis (MN), Wayne (MI) etc...) with heavy Union jobs, every one of these counties voted approximately 60% to 70% for Kerry and 40% to 30% for Bush. There were a couple of surprising counties carried by Bush in Michigan (Macomb being the most significant). Cook County (70% Kerry vs. 30% Bush) in Illinois (Chicago) carries 50% of all votes in Illinois; no wonder there is an 11-point advantage for Kerry in Illinois. Kerry won Illinois by about 500k votes and Cook County alone had Kerry receiving over 800k more votes than Bush.

Yet, the heartland of America and fair thinking non-Union influenced popular vote was able to persevere. This Presidential election result and the result of many recent labor negotiations, plant closures and layoffs, I would think sends a direct message of change and flexibility to this group of overpaid, under performing companies and union members participating in the unionized workforce!

Until such a time Unionized Labor dissolves in the Great Lakes this trend of plant closings etc... will continue, no matter whom the President is and as I said please look in the mirror for answers and methods of changing if you want to see corrective actions and new trends to begin.

I respect commitment to traditional Union beliefs and agree there was a time in our Industrial growth and Global manufacturing dominance Unions offered a fair balance for employees. Temper that understanding with a realistic approach to how business gets done today and reaching the conclusion Unions are not a value becomes clear.

Simply look at manufacturing jobs today they along with the working conditions have improved tremendously with assistance from Union leverage and technology advancements. Companies are faced with a more complex and educated marketplace that is increasingly competitive and driven by profits, shareholder value and customer satisfaction.

Going forward there needs to be a realization that competitive influences and Global competition disallow the "same ole, same ole" approach which has carried through to this point.

Jobs are not lost by the President of the United States they are lost by companies being unable or electing not to become more competitive in every aspect of their business!!!!! Change if not committed to by the unionized workforce in the USA with their associated companies will occur naturally by the function of time. Already there is over whelming evidence of a changing view and participation and acceptance of Unions across America. Look at the numbers. Labor Unions lost just fewer than 25% of their populous in one year from 16.17 Million in 2002 to 15.8 million in 2003 a difference of around 369,000 jobs. Trust me and believe the Unionized Labor force in America will continue this spiral downward regarding membership numbers and value, this fact will unfold, it is simply a function of time and the clock is ticking…
 

red

you must be fk'n kid'g me
Nov 13, 2001
17,572
8
38
what would be an acceptable wage rate for these unionized workers? should they accept the wage rates set in countries like china? would you accept the chinese equivalent wage rate for your job?
 

ocean976124

Arrogant American Idiot
Oct 28, 2002
1,291
0
36
USA
Unions need to realize that the world has changed. Good ideas that have been used instead of union have been making the workers significant share holders in the company.
 

JJicq

Active member
Mar 24, 2003
457
42
28
ocean976124 said:
Unions need to realize that the world has changed. Good ideas that have been used instead of union have been making the workers significant share holders in the company.
Exactly!! I agree
 

onthebottom

Never Been Justly Banned
Jan 10, 2002
40,555
23
38
Hooterville
www.scubadiving.com
Unions simply can't keep the economic water from seeking its new level - any attempt to is simply a waste of time and money.

OTB
 

Keebler Elf

The Original Elf
Aug 31, 2001
14,618
239
63
The Keebler Factory
Blaming the election loss on unions? This is one of the most bizarre posts I've read yet.

Oh well, I guess people with an axe to grind need to cling to whatever they can.

Simple fact is that Bush is driving the US economy into the ground. We're talking nosedive folks.

Let's take a look at Bushonomics, shall we? Taxes down. Economy down. Military spending WAY up. Hmmm, I wonder where all that money is going to come from? Can anyone say NATIONAL DEBT?!?! But don't worry too much, you're childrens' children will still be paying it off when you're dust and bones.

The Americans got who they wanted. Fine by me; it's their decision. And an increasingly marginalized and irrelevant United States of America is mine...
 

JJicq

Active member
Mar 24, 2003
457
42
28
Keebler Elf said:
Blaming the election loss on unions? This is one of the most bizarre posts I've read yet.

Oh well, I guess people with an axe to grind need to cling to whatever they can.

Simple fact is that Bush is driving the US economy into the ground. We're talking nosedive folks.

Let's take a look at Bushonomics, shall we? Taxes down. Economy down. Military spending WAY up. Hmmm, I wonder where all that money is going to come from? Can anyone say NATIONAL DEBT?!?! But don't worry too much, you're childrens' children will still be paying it off when you're dust and bones.

The Americans got who they wanted. Fine by me; it's their decision. And an increasingly marginalized and irrelevant United States of America is mine...
Obviuosly you are in a state prohibiting your ability, assuming you had it to begin with, to read for understanding.
 

onthebottom

Never Been Justly Banned
Jan 10, 2002
40,555
23
38
Hooterville
www.scubadiving.com
Keebler Elf said:
Blaming the election loss on unions? This is one of the most bizarre posts I've read yet.

Oh well, I guess people with an axe to grind need to cling to whatever they can.

Simple fact is that Bush is driving the US economy into the ground. We're talking nosedive folks.

Let's take a look at Bushonomics, shall we? Taxes down. Economy down. Military spending WAY up. Hmmm, I wonder where all that money is going to come from? Can anyone say NATIONAL DEBT?!?! But don't worry too much, you're childrens' children will still be paying it off when you're dust and bones.

The Americans got who they wanted. Fine by me; it's their decision. And an increasingly marginalized and irrelevant United States of America is mine...
The Simple fact is the US economy is growing faster than the EU and Canadian economies, has lower unemployment, better productivity...... We're larger and breaking farther away from the pack.

While Canada is largely irrelevant, the US is increasingly important and central to world affairs.

OTB
 

tillithurts

Member
Aug 20, 2001
348
0
16
Behind You
You argument is extremely valid JJ, although it will only fall on deaf and ignorant ears. Let them go the way of the Dinosaur and see what eventually rises up from the ashes.
 

langeweile

Banned
Sep 21, 2004
5,086
0
0
In a van down by the river
red said:
what would be an acceptable wage rate for these unionized workers? should they accept the wage rates set in countries like china? would you accept the chinese equivalent wage rate for your job?
What is the alternative?
The average joe (that includes me) that goes shoppping in Walmart gives a rats ass were the product is coming from. The only way to stop the outsourcing trend is to buy products from your own country. Unfortunately that is just unrealistic. Being a father of three I have to buy clothes and shoes for them. With the way they are growing it is an expensive endeavour.
if a pair of pair of pants costs $60 and is made in Canada/USA and next to it is a pair of pants costing $30 made in Taiwan, which one do you think I buy?
How often do you go out and just buy something made in the USA/Canada even if its more expensive.
I challenge you, and others on the board that are crying about outsourced jobs, to go around in your house and look at all the labels.
I suggest that 90% of the people don't care were their stuff comes from. The only criteria is a) is it good? b) is it affordable?

Consumers with their behaviour are dictacting the market. Change your behaviour and the market will change.
 

onthebottom

Never Been Justly Banned
Jan 10, 2002
40,555
23
38
Hooterville
www.scubadiving.com
red said:
what would be an acceptable wage rate for these unionized workers? should they accept the wage rates set in countries like china? would you accept the chinese equivalent wage rate for your job?
The market decides the value of a job, in a perfect world it's called a free market economy. Unions disrupt this valuation by artificially restricting the supply of labor (through control and strikes) and increase the price. This works well until the job can be done somewhere else. Outsource is a popular bogyman now but there are other ways - you can subcontract work to non-union companies (that pay market rates for labor) or open another company that does the same thing and move production there in hopes of keeping it non-union (Saturn for instance). All this just to pay market rates for labor.

OTB
 
Ashley Madison
Toronto Escorts