Sundin - stats question

[Mudd Stuffin]

OK Sundin lovers / haters, help me resolve a bet. I say Mats Sundin has never had a fighting major in his years as a Maple Leaf. I have a feeling he may have had some when he played in Quebec, but I am certain he has never done it as a Leaf. Correct me if I am wrong.

One memory of Sundin I will always have is that from last year when he was about 20 feet away from Kaberle when he was hit (cheap-shot) by Cam Janssens of New Jersey and Sundin did absolutely nothing about it. Not even breathe on the guy. Do you think Iginla or Lecavalier would have done nothing...I don't think so. Hell, even Sako Koivu would have at least given the guy the a shot or a slash.

Let the stats speak for themselves. Every other captain the Leafs had since Keon has dropped the gloves. Good riddence Captain Softy.

 

[Hockey_MLnut]

Well Im not sure if Mats has dropped the gloves as a leaf but who cares its not his job. Yeah the best player on the team is going to fight break his hand then be out of 6 weeks.

Iginla and Lecavailer are great players and they do fight but they shouldn't just in case they hurt them selves.

P.S. Joe Sakic owned Doug Gilmour a few years back ill try and find the you tube link.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=18zsScCM1kY

Actually after seeing that it looked like Gilmour didnt want to hit him anyone else think so??

 

[Mudd Stuffin]

I stand corrected

Captain Softy actually has 1 fight as a Leaf. March 1998 - Against that Big GOON - Ray Bourque . Bourque of course got the instigator.

1 fight as a Quebec Nordique. Again, vs another toughie - Dave Hannan (all 150 pounds of him).

 

[ottawasub]

http://dropyourgloves.com/Fights/FightCard.aspx?Player=4394&League=1

He's listed as having 4 fights there, though what difference does it make? Why would you want the only offensively talented player on your team sitting in the penalty box? The Sundin hate seems to be reaching retarded levels on this site.

Lidstrom never fights. I guess Detroit needs to get rid of him.

 

[the_big_E]

okay I don't understand your train of thought.

I guess Alfredsson, Naslund, Sakic, the aforementioned Lidstrom, and Koivu amongst a host of others need to go as well because they dont fight?

 

[The Fruity Hare]

I believe it was Wendel Clark's dad who was once asked why Wendel wasn't fighting as much at one point. His father replied "You can't score from the penalty box:!

Mats is paid to score, Domi was paid to fight. They were and maybe still are best of friends. At least the people who play the game seem to understand the dynamics better than some people here.

 

[C Dick]

Did you know how many fight Gordie Howe had in his career ... Less then 10 ..

Really? Wasn't a Gordie Howe hat-trick a goal, an assist and a fight?

 

[smuddan]

I believe it was Wendel Clark's dad who was once asked why Wendel wasn't fighting as much at one point. His father replied "You can't score from the penalty box:!

Mats is paid to score, Domi was paid to fight. They were and maybe still are best of friends. At least the people who play the game seem to understand the dynamics better than some people here.

You are absolutely correct. Sundin is your most skillful player on the team and he shouldn't have to fight; it's the Coach's job to make sure that every player on ice understands that. The problem is most of the time the players on ice with him are too soft and on many occasions they just failed to protect their captain.

The fight missing in Sundin though is that, even he himself has said that, his main objective in playing hockey is not winning the stanley cup, but rather he wants to remain in Toronto because he feels very comfortable playing here. He has no desire to be traded to a contending team. With him as the leader, this team has been playing with the same identity, a country club atmosphere, everybody is nice to everybody, nobody rocks the boat even when the team is playing poorly. You didn't get that feeling when the team was led by Doug Gilmore or Wendel Clark.

It's time the team needs to have a new leader, someone who takes the approach that, winning is not everything, IT'S THE ONLY THING., and maybe other players will start to follow.

 

[stang]

P.S. Joe Sakic owned Doug Gilmour a few years back ill try and find the you tube link.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=18zsScCM1kY

Actually after seeing that it looked like Gilmour didnt want to hit him anyone else think so??

LMFAO !!!! That announcer !!!
Was he watching the same game?
That's priceless.
Living in his own special world, he even puts Bob Cole to shame.

 

[benn]

OK Sundin lovers / haters, help me resolve a bet. I say Mats Sundin has never had a fighting major in his years as a Maple Leaf. I have a feeling he may have had some when he played in Quebec, but I am certain he has never done it as a Leaf. Correct me if I am wrong.

One memory of Sundin I will always have is that from last year when he was about 20 feet away from Kaberle when he was hit (cheap-shot) by Cam Janssens of New Jersey and Sundin did absolutely nothing about it. Not even breathe on the guy. Do you think Iginla or Lecavalier would have done nothing...I don't think so. Hell, even Sako Koivu would have at least given the guy the a shot or a slash.

Let the stats speak for themselves. Every other captain the Leafs had since Keon has dropped the gloves. Good riddence Captain Softy.

Are you vito from Woodbridge? You are comparing apples to orange, did you ever see Gretzky fight? semenko and mcsorley always rode shotgun for him. and what exactly is the point of this thread?

 

[Hockey_MLnut]

Gordie never got one

Really? Wasn't a Gordie Howe hat-trick a goal, an assist and a fight?

Goal, Assist and any kind of Penalty.

I think I heard on TSN or Sports Net that Gordie Howe never got a Gordie Howe Hat-trick.

 

[C Dick]

Goal, Assist and any kind of Penalty.

I think I heard on TSN or Sports Net that Gordie Howe never got a Gordie Howe Hat-trick.

Howe himself said this in an interview:

How many Gordie Howe hat tricks—one goal, one assist and winning one fight in the same game—did you score in your lifetime?
Quite a few. I had a temper.

Wikipedia says he did it once, and specifies a date.

I also found this on a Red Wings site.
Howe did not set the league on fire right away. Howe spent more time establishing his physical reputation in that time, scoring a total of only 35
goals but dropping the gloves with any and all comers

So who really knows?

 

[ottawasub]

The fight missing in Sundin though is that, even he himself has said that, his main objective in playing hockey is not winning the stanley cup, but rather he wants to remain in Toronto because he feels very comfortable playing here. He has no desire to be traded to a contending team. With him as the leader, this team has been playing with the same identity, a country club atmosphere, everybody is nice to everybody, nobody rocks the boat even when the team is playing poorly. You didn't get that feeling when the team was led by Doug Gilmore or Wendel Clark.

What did the Leafs accomplish with Gilmour and Clark? They made it to the Conference Final twice. Exactly the same thing they accomplished with Sundin.

Sundin is not the problem. He's been surrounded by crap for years.

 

[elmo]

What did the Leafs accomplish with Gilmour and Clark? They made it to the Conference Final twice. Exactly the same thing they accomplished with Sundin.

Sundin is not the problem. He's been surrounded by crap for years.

So I guess that makes all three of them losers...

 

[Tiffany_69]

Fore

You are absolutely correct. Sundin is your most skillful player on the team and he shouldn't have to fight; it's the Coach's job to make sure that every player on ice understands that. The problem is most of the time the players on ice with him are too soft and on many occasions they just failed to protect their captain.

The fight missing in Sundin though is that, even he himself has said that, his main objective in playing hockey is not winning the stanley cup, but rather he wants to remain in Toronto because he feels very comfortable playing here. He has no desire to be traded to a contending team. With him as the leader, this team has been playing with the same identity, a country club atmosphere, everybody is nice to everybody, nobody rocks the boat even when the team is playing poorly. You didn't get that feeling when the team was led by Doug Gilmore or Wendel Clark.

It's time the team needs to have a new leader, someone who takes the approach that, winning is not everything, IT'S THE ONLY THING., and maybe other players will start to follow.

Your so right Toronto Fans are done till he is done. He wears the BIG C he is the leader and if your leader could care less about Lord Stanley... roflmao guess it will be another 15 or so yrs by the time you win one. Matt is having a hell of a year he shows up every fall in great shape, the picture of health. Must be all that golf. He could play hockey another 5 to 10 yrs.




No really big stars or pussies, the youngest net minder combo in all the NNL, draft pics in hand A young team with hunger and fight in them. With more great young prospects here in the Hammer waiting in the wings. Salary cap room. The Calder cup already in hand..... GO HAS GO because Lord Stanley be stopping by within next 3 to 5 yrs.


Mr. Gainey has been a man with a plan and so far it is working.

 

[smuddan]

What did the Leafs accomplish with Gilmour and Clark? They made it to the Conference Final twice. Exactly the same thing they accomplished with Sundin.

Sundin is not the problem. He's been surrounded by crap for years.

I've never said Sundin was the problem. In fact, I respect everything he's done as a Leafs Captain, and that he is a real gentleman and one of the nicest star players among all sport teams in Toronto.

I was only disappointed in his decision not waiving his no-trade option, particularly for the reasons he has given.

I read in the Sun that he proclaimed himself as a "Torontorian" and how much he loved this city. He said he consulted his idol Borje Salming who told him that one of Salming's biggest regrets was not having been able to finish his career as a Leaf.

I'm looking forward to the days when Sundin's hocky career is over and see if he still loves this city that much and remains a
Torontorian, or if he's going to take all the monies he's made here and move back to live in Swedan, just like his childhood idol Borje Salming did.

If he stays then I'll consider him one of the greatest Leafs, if he leaves, then
all these talks about his loyolty and love for this city are just hypocrisy.

 

[smuddan]

He loves the city so much that soon as season over he is back home and you won't see him till a day before training camp . Durning the lock out year he never visited once .... Don't ask how I would know this .. It came right from his mouth ..

Love Sundin but he is playing great right now and will lead us to another 9th place finish ..

I thought he was going to retire next year. Perhaps I was wrong.

He's probably looking for another contract with the Leafs next year and the way he's been playing he's going to put a lot of pressure on the Leafs to resign him, anothr no-trade contract, maybe.

I just hope the new GM will bring in a kick-ass kind of head coach so players will be more accountable. Someone like a Keanan, Burns or one of the Sutter brothers.

 

[Herodotus]

If he stays then I'll consider him one of the greatest Leafs, if he leaves, then
all these talks about his loyolty and love for this city are just hypocrisy.

How old are you? You sound like a love-lorne little boy who just got dumped by his girlfriend...

Seriously dude, I'm almost embarrassed for you - you're taking this WAY too seriously. Your demented ramblings about Mats Sundin have an awful seething edge to them that borders on hostile and obsessive. It doesn't make you a bigger Leaf fan to continue your written assault of Sundin the way you have. Let it go - the problems are much deeper than one person.

It's only business. Just as the Leafs wanted to cashier their only asset because they failed as an organization, Sundin was wise enough to build in some protection for himself in the form of a no-trade clause. On top of that, the team didn't come to him until a couple of days before the trade deadline to see if he wanted to move - that was the ultimate sign of disrespect. And another screw-up by a messed-up organization.

Athletes (escorts, etc.) are people, not livestock or commodities the exist solely for the enjoyment of others. They have lives, feelings, hopes, dreams and ambitions. And sorry to burst your bubble, but the "Leaf Nation" do not factor into this aspect of an athlete's life.

One of the reasons Mats would leave Toronto is because of people like you - those that take a game and turn it into life and death.

Give it a rest, ok?

 

[smuddan]

How old are you? You sound like a love-lorne little boy who just got dumped by his girlfriend...

Seriously dude, I'm almost embarrassed for you - you're taking this WAY too seriously. Your demented ramblings about Mats Sundin have an awful seething edge to them that borders on hostile and obsessive. It doesn't make you a bigger Leaf fan to continue your written assault of Sundin the way you have. Let it go - the problems are much deeper than one person.

It's only business. Just as the Leafs wanted to cashier their only asset because they failed as an organization, Sundin was wise enough to build in some protection for himself in the form of a no-trade clause. On top of that, the team didn't come to him until a couple of days before the trade deadline to see if he wanted to move - that was the ultimate sign of disrespect. And another screw-up by a messed-up organization.

Athletes (escorts, etc.) are people, not livestock or commodities the exist solely for the enjoyment of others. They have lives, feelings, hopes, dreams and ambitions. And sorry to burst your bubble, but the "Leaf Nation" do not factor into this aspect of an athlete's life.

One of the reasons Mats would leave Toronto is because of people like you - those that take a game and turn it into life and death.

Give it a rest, ok?

Sorry if my comments on Sundin offended you.

To you Sundin may be an idol, hero, or even sweetheart, but to me he is just an above average hocky player trying to decorate his selfishness with all this loyolty talks.

It's people like you that make Sundin love this town so much as you put him on such a high pedestal as a superstar when during his career he has very seldom been ranked as one of the top 25 players by the major hockey magazzines.

People like you are so hynotized by his "nice guy" image that you blame every failure on the Leafs ownership/management, but you would jump right up to bust the balls of anyone who dare to question his ability or truthfullness. You'd probably get a hardon everytime you see his smiling face on TV trying to suck you into believing how much he loves Toronto.

You brought up above athelets' lifes, feelings, ambitions, etc., but have you thought about that when you dump on management figures like JFJ ? He made a lot of mistakes which he has already paid for. Why is that only players deserve such consideration ?

I still don't know what I have written above Sundin that "borders on hostile or obsessive", perhaps it's not unlike how you don't really realize that you're just as "hostile and obsessive" in defending "Mats".

No, I don't subscribe to this "Leafs Nation" bullshit, I'm just tired of watching a losing team and keep hearing suckers like you glorifying millionare players when in fact they are big contributors to the team's losing.

Smuddan

 

[C Dick]

It is not reasonable to blame Sundin, or any player, for refusing to waive his no-trade clause. It is a contract between a player and a team, that the team freely entered into. They did not have to give him the no-trade, they chose to, they could presumably have given him more money, or something else instead. And now he should give this thing he negotiated up, for the benefit of a team that he will no longer be part of? If they want to trade him, they could buy him out of the no-trade, would that not be more reasonable? I blame team management, for giving no-trade clauses to players they subsequently wanted to trade, and for generally being incompetent.