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Smoking - time for the endgame?

fuji

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The number of smokers has declined to 15%, the lowest ever, and only about one person in seven.

Is it time for the endgame?

Outlaw the sale of nicotine other than through a prescription from a doctor and work on managing the remaining population off altogether.

I think it is time for an outright ban.
 

anon1

Well-known member
Aug 19, 2001
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Tranquility Base, La Luna
How is that 15% statistic arrived at?
Does it consider the rising use of Vapes which is still nicotine intake but without the other crap?
 

SkyRider

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Mar 31, 2009
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The number of smokers has declined to 15%, the lowest ever, and only about one person in seven.
I wasn't aware that it is as low as 15%. Probably the biggest social change in our lifetime.

Would banning work? What about the black market?
 

Carvher

Well-known member
Apr 13, 2010
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I think it's possible that in the future tobacco will be banned and weed will be legal. Kids will be buying cigarettes on the black market and getting their older sibling to buy their weed at a store.
It will be upside down land.
 

oldjones

CanBarelyRe Member
Aug 18, 2001
24,495
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The number of smokers has declined to 15%, the lowest ever, and only about one person in seven.

Is it time for the endgame?

Outlaw the sale of nicotine other than through a prescription from a doctor and work on managing the remaining population off altogether.

I think it is time for an outright ban.
Criminal prohibitions of drugs cause more harm than they prevent. Much better to continue pushing users along the 'not unlawful but unable to consume' route as we do now, where no one faces consequences for illegal criminal consumption or possession, and they can get all sorts of help kicking their addiction.

There is no endgame with human beings. At least we hope so.
 

Yoga Face

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Jun 30, 2009
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Criminal prohibitions of drugs cause more harm than they prevent. Much better to continue pushing users along the 'not unlawful but unable to consume' route as we do now, where no one faces consequences for illegal criminal consumption or possession, and they can get all sorts of help kicking their addiction.

.
+++

Look at the history of making self harm illegal

Illegalizing gambling and alcohol created the mafia

The medical value of marijuana took a century to be realized meanwhile tens of thousands of decent citizens got thrown in jail

Psychedelics are the next forbidden fruit to be used for health reasons IE magic mushrooms cure migraines - in the meantime brave users who are showing humanity the way risk jail

Meth has made biker gangs rich

How about this for a novel idea - the government stops lying about drugs and finds out the scientific truth and then educates us and we make up our own minds. Yes, some fools will choose the wrong path but that is Darwinism in action and the social cost of taking care of the few fools who misuse drugs is far less than the cost of police, courts, jails etc

First step is to keep FDA agents out of Canada and stop letting the Yanks put economic pressure on us to follow their absurd drug policies

With any luck Trump will build a wall between us and the USA saving us the trouble
 

fuji

Banned
Jan 31, 2005
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Criminal prohibitions of drugs cause more harm than they prevent. Much better to continue pushing users along the 'not unlawful but unable to consume' route as we do now, where no one faces consequences for illegal criminal consumption or possession, and they can get all sorts of help kicking their addiction.

There is no endgame with human beings. At least we hope so.
No one suggested criminalizing possession or consumption. The proposal is to ban the sale of nicotine other than through as prescription. Those who are addicted and can't quit can work on that with their doctor, while continuing to get tobacco products under as prescription.
 

Big Sleazy

Active member
Sep 13, 2004
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They already tax the hell out of the stuff. Why do people insist on creating more legislation and bureaucracy over something that is a personal choice ? Does Big Pharma pay for the trolls on this site ? Freakin Commies...I can't stand them.
 

fuji

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They already tax the hell out of the stuff. Why do people insist on creating more legislation and bureaucracy over something that is a personal choice ? Does Big Pharma pay for the trolls on this site ? Freakin Commies...I can't stand them.
Addiction isn't really a choice.
 

Bud Plug

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Aug 17, 2001
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I understand the logic of the proposal, but have a hard time reconciling it with concurrent legalization of pot. Quite aside from the impairment issue, I would think that smoking pot carries all of the health risks of smoking tobacco. I haven't looked at any research on this, so if there is credible evidence to the contrary I wouldn't mind having a look at it.

As for those who are arguing that banning anything leads to a black market and organized crime, surely that isn't reason enough to stop people from doing something that endangers themselves, and more importantly, others? Sometimes addressing these problems only after their consequences come to bear is just too expensive or otherwise unacceptable. The Muzzo case would have been no less tragic if he was high on pot instead of drunk. Until every vehicle has an ignition lock that tests for all known intoxicants, and we actually have enough money to fund our current health care system, I'm not prepared to take such a "everybody do their own thing" approach to personal substance abuse.
 

oldjones

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Aug 18, 2001
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No one suggested criminalizing possession or consumption. The proposal is to ban the sale of nicotine other than through as prescription. Those who are addicted and can't quit can work on that with their doctor, while continuing to get tobacco products under as prescription.
All very well to legislate: 'Nicotine is banned', but you have to have penalties, and that's when you criminalize. The harder you make it to get the stuff the bigger the underground market gets, with all the evils of utterly unregulated commerce.

But I'll take your, "I think it is time for an outright ban." as over-enthusiasm and hyperbole along with your call to "Outlaw the sale …", and imagine something like the old British System for managing addicts off heroin by legal prescriptions. Not that it worked, but it was relatively peaceable. Until mass tourism, greed and TV made such quiet little national policies impossible to maintain.

Given people's right to live as unhealthily as they choose, I see no hope of achieving zero use, and don't see much to be gained tinkering with the present set-up. Although I'd generally favour anything the cleared the butts from around buildings and kept the shivering addicts better hidden in winter. But regulating building owners to provide ashstands, and maintain their frontage would do more than any amount of 'outlawing'. And no law will stop private smoking at home

Although soon there'll be a carbon tax …
 

oldjones

CanBarelyRe Member
Aug 18, 2001
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I understand the logic of the proposal, but have a hard time reconciling it with concurrent legalization of pot. Quite aside from the impairment issue, I would think that smoking pot carries all of the health risks of smoking tobacco. I haven't looked at any research on this, so if there is credible evidence to the contrary I wouldn't mind having a look at it.

As for those who are arguing that banning anything leads to a black market and organized crime, surely that isn't reason enough to stop people from doing something that endangers themselves, and more importantly, others? Sometimes addressing these problems only after their consequences come to bear is just too expensive or otherwise unacceptable. The Muzzo case would have been no less tragic if he was high on pot instead of drunk. Until every vehicle has an ignition lock that tests for all known intoxicants, and we actually have enough money to fund our current health care system, I'm not prepared to take such a "everybody do their own thing" approach to personal substance abuse.
I don't think the sentence I highlighted actually says what you meant it to. But if prohibition actually worked, then alcohol — our most abused, most dangerous, deadly and unhealthy recreational drug — would still be illegal, and no one would be thinking of legalizing cannabis. Prohibition does not work. What works is people learning what is safe responsible use and what is not. The great blunt instrument of the law should be saved for truly dangerous concerns for which we have no other tools. Murder and such.

You also raised smoking and impaired driving as general issues of legitimate concern, irrespective of the drugs involved. If we legislate against a long-established social practice like smoking out of overriding public health concern, we'll be on the same slippery slope with the 'ban sugary drinks', and the 'outlaw fatty fast foods' crowd. Like prohibition, these are ass-backwards ways to get people to look after themselves. They won't. Likewise if we stop our anti-impaired driving efforts after passing criminal prohibitions, we'll fail utterly, as we did for decades. On the other hand MADD and the healthy living people have done more to change attitudes and to cut into drinking and driving and unhealthy diets than any laws we've ever tried.

Laws don't make people good. They don't stop the Muzzos, they just define them as criminals we have to house and feed in jails. What we want is no criminals, no DUIs, and no smokers. Not more of both.
 

Bud Plug

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Aug 17, 2001
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The great blunt instrument of the law should be saved for truly dangerous concerns for which we have no other tools. Murder and such.
But that's the point isn't it? The reason why pot is illegal is that we don't have an effective way of preventing people from getting high (or even reliably testing for intoxication) and driving/operating dangerous equipment/etc., and the potential for people getting killed is reason enough for the law to intervene.

Laws will never cause everyone to make the right choice, but they do cause most of the people to make the right choice. Legalizing every behaviour may allow us to say there are no criminals, but it would make living in our society worse for everyone, and that's why we have laws and prisons.
 

Butler1000

Well-known member
Oct 31, 2011
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But that's the point isn't it? The reason why pot is illegal is that we don't have an effective way of preventing people from getting high (or even reliably testing for intoxication) and driving/operating dangerous equipment/etc., and the potential for people getting killed is reason enough for the law to intervene.

Laws will never cause everyone to make the right choice, but they do cause most of the people to make the right choice. Legalizing every behaviour may allow us to say there are no criminals, but it would make living in our society worse for everyone, and that's why we have laws and prisons.
Actually it originally became illegal mainly due to the efforts of Southern Cotton Farmers to "weed out" hemp as an alternative product. And spread.

But I doubt at the time it was made illegal high driving was a factor. Not many drivers then. I think it was actually round the same time a Prohibition. But very different lobbyists.
 

The Options Menu

Slightly Swollen Member
Sep 13, 2005
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Outlaw the sale of nicotine other than through a prescription from a doctor and work on managing the remaining population off altogether.
As a long time smoker that started in their early teens, and who has been quit for a number of years, I'd say if you can get that number down to 10%, or 1 in 10, for smoking, pipe, rolling, and chewing tobacco, then ban those things (maybe with and exemption for home grown tobacco for religious purposes and cigars, not cigarillos). Most other nicotine products are nominally smoking cessation aids (minus 'vape because it's cool' folks), or are likely (or actually) significantly less harmful than smoking or chewing tobacco. God knows I wouldn't have quit without a long run on the patch and a number of back-steps... If those patches weren't OTC I'd still be smoking, as the non-nicotine cessation aids went very poorly for me, and even with the patch I went longer than the recommended (and formerly prescribed) period, with steps back up the dosage scale at times. Needing several trips to a doctor / clinic would have been a non-starter (a frankly, the doctor would have got to bill for those trips, making them a socially expensive way to quit).

It's a horrible addiction that makes me cringe when I hear somebody talking about being 'addicted to chocolate', or other nonsense, and that's my $0.02 on it.
 

oldjones

CanBarelyRe Member
Aug 18, 2001
24,495
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But that's the point isn't it? The reason why pot is illegal is that we don't have an effective way of preventing people from getting high (or even reliably testing for intoxication) and driving/operating dangerous equipment/etc., and the potential for people getting killed is reason enough for the law to intervene.

Laws will never cause everyone to make the right choice, but they do cause most of the people to make the right choice. Legalizing every behaviour may allow us to say there are no criminals, but it would make living in our society worse for everyone, and that's why we have laws and prisons.
No, read the history; we made pot illegal in 1923 because darkies used it for fun, and you know what their kinda fun was. Before that it was a legitimate over the counter medicine; you could Google Asthmador™ as one of the medicines, and look up Emily Murphy's* The Black Candle for the racist sensationalism.

The huge number of lawbreakers incarcerated in the US for minor drug offences should have put the lie to the naïve belief that laws make us behave, I don't know why you're repeating that cant. Laws tell people what their lawmakers have decided is the standard for ordinary behaviour. When the people disagree with their lawmakers — as with drugs (most spectacularly during Prohibition), gambling and sex — all the laws in the world don't stop them.

I don't know what you're trying to say when you talk about legalizing every behaviour, as that has nothing to do with anything said here. We have prisons to lock up bad people. When we define common, ordinary behaviors as cause for imprisonment, we run out of jails — as they have in the US — and have to make room by releasing 'criminals' — as they have in the US — with no way of distinguishing the real baddies, from the ones our bad laws created.

But I agree that "we don't have an effective way of preventing people from getting high …", nor to prevent them getting drunk, or taking too much Nyquil™, but we do have laws against dangerous impairment in general, and driving while impaired in particular. Those laws have failed to stop drunks from driving, so it's hard to see how they'll do any better with any other drug. But we will have them to use against the bad people who only exercise judgement after they've impaired it. A few years of low-cost MADD campaigns have done more to make people decide not to drink and drive than all the millions we've spent on roadside checks and legally invulnerable Breathalysers.

But if you really think making drugs illegal keeps our roads safe, why isn't alcohol illegal? It's far and away the most abused drug, and the one involved in the most crimes on and off the road.

Anyway, fascinating as this is, it's far off topic, and I think you haven't made a general case for prohibition that could apply to tobacco.
----------
* Murphy's well worth a Google, not everything she did was as blinkered and hysterical as her pot crusade, and she well deserved her picture on our $50 bills as one of the Famous Five.
 

oldjones

CanBarelyRe Member
Aug 18, 2001
24,495
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As a long time smoker that started in their early teens, and who has been quit for a number of years, I'd say if you can get that number down to 10%, or 1 in 10, for smoking, pipe, rolling, and chewing tobacco, then ban those things (maybe with and exemption for home grown tobacco for religious purposes and cigars, not cigarillos). Most other nicotine products are nominally smoking cessation aids (minus 'vape because it's cool' folks), or are likely (or actually) significantly less harmful than smoking or chewing tobacco. God knows I wouldn't have quit without a long run on the patch and a number of back-steps... If those patches weren't OTC I'd still be smoking, as the non-nicotine cessation aids went very poorly for me, and even with the patch I went longer than the recommended (and formerly prescribed) period, with steps back up the dosage scale at times. Needing several trips to a doctor / clinic would have been a non-starter (a frankly, the doctor would have got to bill for those trips, making them a socially expensive way to quit).

It's a horrible addiction that makes me cringe when I hear somebody talking about being 'addicted to chocolate', or other nonsense, and that's my $0.02 on it.
Check this past Sunday's New York Times for a psychiatrist's account of a mother who had chewed nicotine gum, all but non-stop, for the past 30 years (she never smoked, and only valued the stimulant effect of the nicotine).

He used her case (she had no interest in stopping, and her addiction caused no difficulties in her life) as one of the illustrations of how general treatment of the patient, can be facilitated by focussing on the role of a specific thing, in this case a drug. As with the gum-chewing mother, very often the patients had successfully incorporated their drug and its effect into their lives and neither he nor they saw ending the use as desirable or important.
 

saxon

Well-known member
Dec 2, 2009
4,754
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Addiction isn't really a choice.
Yes it is. If you choose to start smoking or drinking or using hard drugs and then become addicted it was because of your poor choice to start using these substances in the first place.
 
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