Senior Fatah Officials Call For One State Solution.

[gryfin]

It looks like Zionist greed is coming back to bite it as senior Fatah officials are now calling for a one state solution.

"Calling the two-state solution unrealistic, senior Fatah members issued a document Wednesday calling for the establishment of one democratic country in the area between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River.

The initiative, which was the culmination of two years of discussion, coincided with the 65th anniversary of the Nakba ‏(“catastrophe” in Arabic‏) − the forced exile of more than 700,000 Palestinians in 1948 and after and the dispersal of the Palestinian people between different countries and regimes.

It states that “the racist Israeli policy of separation and segregation” has made the two-state solution ‏(based on pre-1967 borders‏) unrealistic. Therefore, the most desirable option left for the Palestinian people and the one which will allow the right of return is: “a democratic state for all its citizens, which will be based on a democratic constitution and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and will guarantee freedom and equal rights, without discrimination on the basis of ethnicity, religion, gender, skin color, language, nationality, political opinion, social origin and place of birth.”


http://www.haaretz.com/news/diploma...state-not-two-state-solution.premium-1.524443

 

[basketcase]

Latest polling has 70% of Palestinians opposed to this.
http://www.pcpsr.org/survey/polls/2013/p47e.html

The poll also shows 56% of Palestinians don't want to recognize Israeli in a two state solution and only 55% support the latest Arab League Plan.


Also worth noting:
Latest numbers have 40% supporting attacks on Israeli civilians inside Israel.

On the positive side though, support for Hamas has dropped to 19% to Fatah's 31%.

 

[Aardvark154]

Its a non-starter of an idea with slightly less chance than reestablishing the Holy Roman Empire within the next 30 years.

 

[fuji]

You would have to be just about the stupidest person on the planet to think that the Palestinians have even the slightest interest in extending equality to Jews in such a state.

Today they fire rockets at towns and villages, blow up restaurants and weddings, fire anti-tank missiles at school busses, shoot pregnant women, and have some of the most racist laws anywhere in the world -- the death penalty for conducting a real estate transaction with a Jew! -- and tomorrow they're just suddenly all going to gain some new found respect for human rights and the rule of law?

Bullshit.

This is what they tried and failed to do in 1947 at gunpoint and it's the same thing all over again -- a thinly disguised call for the destruction of Israel so they can live out their fantasy of driving all the Jews into the sea.

 

[onthebottom]

Its a non-starter of an idea with slightly less chance than reestablishing the Holy Roman Empire within the next 30 years.

I think it's both more likely and workable than a two state solution. There is no way Israel will surrender enough of its occupied settlements and split Jeruselum - without those a one state solution is all that is left. The Israelies have done this to themselves....

 

[fuji]

I think it's both more likely and workable than a two state solution. There is no way Israel will surrender enough of its occupied settlements and split Jeruselum - without those a one state solution is all that is left. The Israelies have done this to themselves....

If by "workable" you mean a massive civil war with an incredible level of bloodshed. Maybe you have forgotten what happened in 1947 and who the aggressor was.

What you are saying is similar to arguing that Kosovo should be merged with Serbia and put under Serb control, just so long as the Serbs promise to implement equality.

By the way, there is also the possibility of a "no state" solution -- the territories just remain a failed state, eventually put under UN jurisdiction, and possibly one day merged with Jordan and Egypt. I am not sure who you think is going to force Israel to commit suicide.

 

[toguy5252]

I think it's both more likely and workable than a two state solution. There is no way Israel will surrender enough of its occupied settlements and split Jeruselum - without those a one state solution is all that is left. The Israelies have done this to themselves....

This is just the wet dream of the clown brothers and their fellow travelers. There are very few absolutes in the world however, I believe i can say without any fear of history proving me wrong that this will NEVER happen. Israel does not covet the West Bank or Gaza and it will not allow demographics to do what terrorism and 2 wars were unable to achieve.

The Palestinians deserve a sovereign state and it will not happen unless or until they come to the table. In the meantime regrettably the status quo will continue.

 

[gryfin]

If by "workable" you mean a massive civil war with an incredible level of bloodshed. Maybe you have forgotten what happened in 1947 and who the aggressor was.

What you are saying is similar to arguing that Kosovo should be merged with Serbia and put under Serb control, just so long as the Serbs promise to implement equality.

By the way, there is also the possibility of a "no state" solution -- the territories just remain a failed state, eventually put under UN jurisdiction, and possibly one day merged with Jordan and Egypt. I am not sure who you think is going to force Israel to commit suicide.

No one other than a Zionist would consider equality suicide.

The one state solution is nothing more than the implementation of democracy and equality. It's called Western values. The one state solution comprises the same value Jews around the world demand wherever they live - whether it is Canada, the US or Europe.

The one state solution is a threat to no one who believes in equality.

 

[onthebottom]

If by "workable" you mean a massive civil war with an incredible level of bloodshed. Maybe you have forgotten what happened in 1947 and who the aggressor was.

What you are saying is similar to arguing that Kosovo should be merged with Serbia and put under Serb control, just so long as the Serbs promise to implement equality.

By the way, there is also the possibility of a "no state" solution -- the territories just remain a failed state, eventually put under UN jurisdiction, and possibly one day merged with Jordan and Egypt. I am not sure who you think is going to force Israel to commit suicide.

20% of Israel is arab citizens, why could not those occupied in Gaza and the West Bank simply become citizens and join or start political parties to look after their interests. It's a very workable solution, in fact the only workable solution currently.

OTB

 

[fuji]

20% of Israel is arab citizens, why could not those occupied in Gaza and the West Bank simply become citizens and join or start political parties to look after their interests. It's a very workable solution, in fact the only workable solution currently.

Have you even thought about this?

It seems to me to be a statement you are just throwing out there without actually knowing the history or motives of any of the people involved.

It seems like to don't know the difference between Arabs who accepted an offer of equality in 1947 and those who instead chose race war.

You also seems to are unaware of the levels of racist hatred against Jews among a big percentage of the Arabs in Gaza and the West Bank (not unrelated to their different choice in 47).

Their goal is not a secular democracy where everybody is equal, and you cannot wave a magic wand and make that happen. Their goal is an Islamic state without any Jews. Note that NONE of the surrounding Arab states extend equality to Jews. Not a single one. Most of them in various ways made it illegal to be Jewish.

In terms of "workable" what are you suggesting? Send in the US military to defeat the Israeli government and impose this solution? Then what? Keep them there to put down the inevitable massacre of Jews? Or just let that happen?

It would have to be imposed like that because nobody on either side wants that outcome. The Israelis want Israel, and the Arabs want an Islamic Palestine. Neither side will go along with your proposal and neither side want it.

So I am curious what the word "workable" means to you. It doesn't seem like you have thought about this.

 

[fuji]

The one state solution is a threat to no one who believes in equality.

Which Arab state do you propose as a model for the equal treatment of Jews?

 

[onthebottom]

Have you even thought about this?

It seems to me to be a statement you are just throwing out there without actually knowing the history or motives of any of the people involved.

It seems like to don't know the difference between Arabs who accepted an offer of equality in 1947 and those who instead chose race war.

You also seems to are unaware of the levels of racist hatred against Jews among a big percentage of the Arabs in Gaza and the West Bank (not unrelated to their different choice in 47).

Their goal is not a secular democracy where everybody is equal, and you cannot wave a magic wand and make that happen. Their goal is an Islamic state without any Jews. Note that NONE of the surrounding Arab states extend equality to Jews. Not a single one. Most of them in various ways made it illegal to be Jewish.

In terms of "workable" what are you suggesting? Send in the US military to defeat the Israeli government and impose this solution? Then what? Keep them there to put down the inevitable massacre of Jews? Or just let that happen?

It would have to be imposed like that because nobody on either side wants that outcome. The Israelis want Israel, and the Arabs want an Islamic Palestine. Neither side will go along with your proposal and neither side want it.

So I am curious what the word "workable" means to you. It doesn't seem like you have thought about this.

I don't think the people in Gaza and the West Bank "chose race war" I think they were occupied after a war. I think there is an abundance of racism in Israel, sadly it's not exclusively an Arab issue.

You think everyone is equal in a Jewish state - that's funny. If Israel were truly a secular state that would be a great start. I will give you that Israel is BY FAR the most representative state in the region. There is institutional discrimination by the Israeli government against Arab citizens.

In the end the Arabs are not going to get a workable Palestine, the Israelis have stolen too much of the land and will not part with Jerusalem.... The Israelis want a Jewish state, the Arabs want an Islamist state... What they should both do is settle for a single secular state.

US military not required, all we'd have to do is suspend funding the government, blockade money transfers.... that, along with a rabid UN would do the trick.

OTB

 

[onthebottom]

Which Arab state do you propose as a model for the equal treatment of Jews?

There isn't one, and Israel doesn't treat it's Arab citizens equally... so what we have is different degrees of the same issue.

OTB

 

[fuji]

I don't think the people in Gaza and the West Bank "chose race war" I think they were occupied after a war.

Then the difference between your opinion and mine really is just a matter for you to go educate yourself on the history of the PLO, particularly Fatah and Hamas.

Some of the people in Gaza and the West Bank are clearly just victims of this whole situation, but the military apparatus there, and the government there, clearly is made up of people who chose race war against Israel and still do explicitly state that they chose race war against Israel, and that sentiment is shared by something over 40% of the Palestinian population. While 40% is not a majority in a democratic vote, it sure as hell is enough people to carry out massacres, pograms, armed attacks, and so on, and the other 60% of the population there is CLEARLY willing to accept that sort of behavior, tolerate it, even celebrate it.

Some of those who chose war against Israel are more moderate than others. Fatah is considered moderate because it has come around to agree that Israel may be allowed to exist in some limited way, while Hamas broke from the PLO over that assertion and insists that Israel has no such right. Fatah, however, has institute some of the most racist anti-Jewish laws the world has ever seen in its time at the helm of the Palestinian Authority and it might be worth reminding you that it is currently led by one of the organizers of the Munich Massacre. Go check how many different things involving Jews result in the death penalty under Abbas. It's not a pleasant place to be a Jew, and it's astonishing you think the people who instituted such an incredibly racist and violent anti-Jewish regime are suddenly going to get along swimmingly with the Jewish population of Israel.

I think there is an abundance of racism in Israel, sadly it's not exclusively an Arab issue.

There is racism everywhere, but in a general sense the Israelis have extended full equality to their Arab citizens, while all of the surrounding Arab nations, including the Palestinian authority, have essentially made it illegal to be Jewish, illegal to marry a Jewish person, illegal to sell property to a Jew, and so on.

In the end the Arabs are not going to get a workable Palestine, the Israelis have stolen too much of the land and will not part with Jerusalem....

Jersusalem is an emotional issue for both sides but I fail to see what magical power it has that makes a Palestinian state unworkable without it. It would be better for Jerusalem to wind up a shared city, but I fail to see why a Palestinian state is unworkable without it. Outside of that issue, the rest of the land occupied by settlements is in fact very small -- about 1% of the total. Around that 1% are large security buffers which puff it up into a much larger area that is currently denied to the Palestinians, but if peace were to prevail in the region those buffer zones would be eliminated.

So leaving aside Jerusalem we are talking about negotiations over 1% of the land. Does not seem like a difficult thing to achieve, really. Jerusalem is the only actual difficult issue.

But let's say you are right -- let's say that the Palestinians are too fucked up to ever pull off a real state, that they are doomed to be stateless for ever.

Why is that Israel's problem? And why would it require merging them into Israel, rather than Jordan or Egypt? Or just leave them under UN jurisdiction in perpetuity?

Merging them into a nearby Arab state would certainly result in far less bloodshed, would not restart the 1947 civil war, and so on.

 

[fuji]

There isn't one, and Israel doesn't treat it's Arab citizens equally... so what we have is different degrees of the same issue.

OTB

Where by "different degrees" you mean that Israel treats its Arab citizens better than America treats its black citizens, while the surrounding Arab nation carried out genocidal ethnic cleansings to rid themselves of their entire Jewish populations. That is what you mean by "degrees".

I really don't think you have actually put any thought into the things you say.

 

[basketcase]

I think it's both more likely and workable than a two state solution. ...

A quick look at port-spring Egypt will tell you why Israelis would never accept it. Democratic vote ---> Islamist winners ---> constitution re-written with Islam above others ---> repression of rights and freedoms ---> ethnic tensions. And of course the end result is obvious.

As a westerner, it would be great if the middle east could have a democracy where one vote is one vote regardless of religion everyone's rights are protected. Actually Israel isn't to far from that already.

The Palestinians decidedly don't want one pluralistic state. The Israelis don't want a state where the likes of Hamas may hold power. Simply unworkable.


As for settlements, I would be willing to bet my fortune that if the Palestinians were truly willing to give up violence and claims on all of Israel, the settlements would be gone in the blink of an eye.

 

[basketcase]

20% of Israel is arab citizens, why could not those occupied in Gaza and the West Bank simply become citizens and join or start political parties to look after their interests. ...

If you look at the poll I linked, 70% of Palestinians don't want a one state solution. I don't see why you expect that to change.

 

[basketcase]

I don't think the people in Gaza and the West Bank "chose race war" I think they were occupied after a war.

You might look back before 1967 to 20 years earlier before suggesting this.

I think there is an abundance of racism in Israel, sadly it's not exclusively an Arab issue.

Of course that's true. That racism doesn't change that Arabs Israelis have full and equal rights under the law. Meanwhile the Palestinian Authority and Hamas have very overt laws against Jews. There is significant racism in the US but is that a reason to dismantle your country?


The rest of your ideas are nice but until there is a strong movement among Palestinians towards a secular tolerant state, we're going nowhere.


p.s. the moderates in Fatah made their constitution start with Islam it's official religion and Sharia the basis of it's laws. If that's what the moderates feel, how do you suggest to win over the hardliners?

 

[Aardvark154]

I think it's both more likely and workable than a two state solution. There is no way Israel will surrender enough of its occupied settlements and split Jeruselum - without those a one state solution is all that is left. The Israelies have done this to themselves....

1) The settlements will have to go. 2) The boundary at the Tel Aviv wasp waist (which after all was merely a ceasefire line) will have to be adjusted. 3) Jerusalem will have to have some sort of joint administration or be an international city.

 

[groggy]

Have you even thought about this?

It seems to me to be a statement you are just throwing out there without actually knowing the history or motives of any of the people involved.

It seems like to don't know the difference between Arabs who accepted an offer of equality in 1947 and those who instead chose race war.

You also seems to are unaware of the levels of racist hatred against Jews among a big percentage of the Arabs in Gaza and the West Bank (not unrelated to their different choice in 47).

Their goal is not a secular democracy where everybody is equal, and you cannot wave a magic wand and make that happen. Their goal is an Islamic state without any Jews. Note that NONE of the surrounding Arab states extend equality to Jews. Not a single one. Most of them in various ways made it illegal to be Jewish.

In terms of "workable" what are you suggesting? Send in the US military to defeat the Israeli government and impose this solution? Then what? Keep them there to put down the inevitable massacre of Jews? Or just let that happen?

It would have to be imposed like that because nobody on either side wants that outcome. The Israelis want Israel, and the Arabs want an Islamic Palestine. Neither side will go along with your proposal and neither side want it.

So I am curious what the word "workable" means to you. It doesn't seem like you have thought about this.

Aren't you the one that argues that Israel is a democratic state with equal rights for all races within one country?
Since it works with the Palestinians there (though you won't call them that, they have to be 'arabs'), why can't it work throughout all of Israel and the occupied territories?