Selling A Car As "Unfit".....Liability Issues?

[jbar]

Hi Folks,

I am about to try to sell a car as "Unfit" (e.g. uncertified), and I was wondering about any potential liability issues that might arise. Does the ownership/title stay with me until the buyer goes and registers the vehicle in their name?

I'm concerned that since they could take days/weeks/etc to do this if they choose the certify it. If the buyer does something stupid with it before transfering the title (e.g. gets it working and runs into something/someone), will I be liable? Or would the signed bill of sale from the Used Vehicle Information Package be enough to clear me of any responsiblity? Are there any troublesome loopholes that I should be worried about?

I've checked several websites, and this issue isn't clear (unless I'm a little slow of course). Thanks in advance.


Cheers

 

[Moraff]

Hi Folks,

I am about to try to sell a car as "Unfit" (e.g. uncertified), and I was wondering about any potential liability issues that might arise. Does the ownership/title stay with me until the buyer goes and registers the vehicle in their name?

I'm concerned that since they could take days/weeks/etc to do this if they choose the certify it. If the buyer does something stupid with it before transfering the title (e.g. gets it working and runs into something/someone), will I be liable? Or would the signed bill of sale from the Used Vehicle Information Package be enough to clear me of any responsiblity? Are there any troublesome loopholes that I should be worried about?

I've checked several websites, and this issue isn't clear (unless I'm a little slow of course). Thanks in advance.


Cheers

I would assume that anything that happened after the Bill of Sale was signed would not be your problem, especially since you keep your plates.

 

[Cinema Face]

No problem for you.

The new owner is then responsible to getting the car certified.

It's good to note that many mechanics will be much stricter when they know you're certifying to buy rather than certifying to sell. Depending how honest the mechanic is, it may cost a lot more that way.

It's the buyer's problem, not yours.

 

[jbar]

Thanks for the quick response.

No problem for you.

The new owner is then responsible to getting the car certified.

That part I understand. It is their behavior between the time I hand the keys (and everything else) over to the buyer, and when they actually go to the MTO to register the title (assuming that they aren't parting out the car).

I've read one story that after a buyer took possession of a car, but didn't formally transfer the title into their name, went out on a crime spree and the seller was legally dragged into that mess. Or am I confusing US laws with CAD laws?

 

[xix]

I've read one story that after a buyer took possession of a car, but didn't formally transfer the title into their name, went out on a crime spree and the seller was legally dragged into that mess. Or am I confusing US laws with CAD laws?

Here is a good story.
Jack said his Landlady sold her Honda Civic of 13 years that was sitting in her drive way. It was sitting for 3 years rusting and small dent on the bumper, she was 75+.
Some guy approached her with an offer she couldn't refuse cash on hand. She handed the keys with licenses plates still on the car.
Well 2 weeks later cops show up at her door and told her they found her car abandon, by some thieves that robbed a bank. In the pursuit, the criminals left the car and ran,they got caught, the cops simply saw the car as stolen and abandon and just returned the car as is to her. Since the criminals never register the car in their name, and it had her plates they avoided less paper work and headaches by returning the car to her. The car was fixed on the bumper, new; all cleaned, no oil leak, new tires and well tuned up.

 

[The Bandit]

Here is a good story.
Jack said his Landlady sold her Honda Civic of 13 years that was sitting in her drive way. It was sitting for 3 years rusting and small dent on the bumper, she was 75+.
Some guy approached her with an offer she couldn't refuse cash on hand. She handed the keys with licenses plates still on the car.
Well 2 weeks later cops show up at her door and told her they found her car abandon, by some thieves that robbed a bank. In the pursuit, the criminals left the car and ran,they got caught, the cops simply saw the car as stolen and abandon and just returned the car as is to her. Since the criminals never register the car in their name, and it had her plates they avoided less paper work and headaches by returning the car to her. The car was fixed on the bumper, new; all cleaned, no oil leak, new tires and well tuned up.

She was stupid enough to let them take the car "with" plates, so it must have been in the U.S.

 

[anon1]

It was sitting for 3 years.

Plates would have expired.

 

[simon482]

you sign the back of the ownership and hand everything over it is no longer your issue. people sell used cars all the fucking time. thousands a day and this never comes up. it would be like a guy going to car dealer taking a car on a test drive robbing a bank and the car dealer being put in the mix as part of the criminal. just sell the car.

 

[oldjones]

Thanks for the quick response.



That part I understand. It is their behavior between the time I hand the keys (and everything else) over to the buyer, and when they actually go to the MTO to register the title (assuming that they aren't parting out the car).

I've read one story that after a buyer took possession of a car, but didn't formally transfer the title into their name, went out on a crime spree and the seller was legally dragged into that mess. Or am I confusing US laws with CAD laws?

You own the plates; don't sell them with the car. MTO has various temporary registration arrangements the buyer can use, or they can tow the car away. Put any of your other issues about responsibility coming back to you onto paper as conditions of the sale on this day for this amount and have the buyer sign it, in front of a witness if you're that scared.

 

[larry]

You own the plates; don't sell them with the car. MTO has various temporary registration arrangements the buyer can use, or they can tow the car away. Put any of your other issues about responsibility coming back to you onto paper as conditions of the sale on this day for this amount and have the buyer sign it, in front of a witness if you're that scared.

this all sounds like "don't worry. it'll be ok". I'm doubtful. If a car still registered to you speeds thru photo radar, you will have a tussle clearing that. if the car is identified at a crime scene, who do you think the police will interview. god forbid that you were actually near that crime scene by coincidence. i'd go with the buyer and get ownership transferred right away. in fact, that is such a pain, i don't do it. my old junkers go to the wreckerss or get traded in. no hassle.

 

[TheKing]

The best way

Safest way to sell ANY car (fit or unfit)

-Draw up a bill of sale. There are lots on the Internet
-Make sure you put a date AND time that the bill of sale was signed. That way if they pick up your car at noon and rob a bank at 4pm, you have a bill of sale that said 12:00 noon and not just the date.
-Always always always remove your license plates from the car. It is up to the buyer to get a temporary plate which isn't expensive at all. Or you deliver the car to their driveway and remove your plates.
-Write buyer's drivers license # on the bill of sale
-Make two identical copies of bill of sale (sign and date each one separately, or if you are around a photocopier you can just prepare one and make a copy). Give one to buyer and you keep one.

You pretty much have an iron clad defense if the cops show up at your door. You have a date/time on a bill of sale, signed by both parties, you can provide the buyer's DL number to the cops, and your license plates aren't on the car. It would be pretty difficult to argue that you were somehow involved in the bank robbery

 

[oldjones]

this all sounds like "don't worry. it'll be ok". I'm doubtful. If a car still registered to you speeds thru photo radar, you will have a tussle clearing that. if the car is identified at a crime scene, who do you think the police will interview. god forbid that you were actually near that crime scene by coincidence. i'd go with the buyer and get ownership transferred right away. in fact, that is such a pain, i don't do it. my old junkers go to the wreckerss or get traded in. no hassle.

Once you've removed your plates, completed and recorded the transaction on the ownership—and whatever other documentation makes you comfy—then the car is not yours, even if neither of you has yet registered the change of ownership with the MTO, and they give you time to do that. Once you have assisted the police in their enquiries, the new owner will be dinged for falsely plating (the owner of those plates may get to assist the cops first), and operating an uncertified, uninsurted, unregistered vehicle.

All you need to prove is that that you sold the car, and no longer possess it. And you're really in the clear if you get on the phone to the cops the moment he's outta the driveway with the unsafe, vehicle which cannot be legally driven. Unless it's on the hook, of course.

Both of you going to the MTO is ironclad, but seriously difficult to arrange considering he won't be able to actually get plates until he's had the cert work done.

And as usual, it's pointless to dispute what's easily gotten straight from the horse's mouth by Googling: "MTO selling an uncertified car"

 

[jbar]

Wow. Lots of great of info and advice on here. Thanks everyone, I think I've got a handle on it now.


Cheers!

 

[Moraff]

Thanks for the quick response.



That part I understand. It is their behavior between the time I hand the keys (and everything else) over to the buyer, and when they actually go to the MTO to register the title (assuming that they aren't parting out the car).

I've read one story that after a buyer took possession of a car, but didn't formally transfer the title into their name, went out on a crime spree and the seller was legally dragged into that mess. Or am I confusing US laws with CAD laws?

You might get "dragged into it" if the investigation leads the police to you, however any legal involvement will end when you show them the paperwork showing that you sold the vehicle before the events of interest. At that point they will want any info they can get from you on the buyer and that's it.

I was in a somewhat similar predicament. Had a police officer come to my door to question me about whether or not I knew certain people. Turns out he was investigating a murder and there had been phone calls made to parties involved from my number on a particular date. Bell had told them that I was the owner of the number at the time. Fortunately I keep ALL my bills n' stuff for 7 years and was able to show the officer that while I indeed HAD had the number, by the date in question I had moved and had a different number for 4 months. At that point he lost interest in me. Phew!

 

[Moraff]

this all sounds like "don't worry. it'll be ok". I'm doubtful. If a car still registered to you speeds thru photo radar, you will have a tussle clearing that. if the car is identified at a crime scene, who do you think the police will interview. god forbid that you were actually near that crime scene by coincidence. i'd go with the buyer and get ownership transferred right away. in fact, that is such a pain, i don't do it. my old junkers go to the wreckerss or get traded in. no hassle.

If it speeds through photo radar, they will have a plate number. Given that you do not transfer the plates when you sell the car, those plates will not trace back to the original owner, but rather to the owner of the plates.

 

[Aardvark154]

Jbar, not entirely sure if this applies in Ontario, but on any bill of sale you might want to include "as-is" language, just to make it entirely plain that you are not saying the vehicle is driveable or certifiable.

 

[jbar]

Jbar, not entirely sure if this applies in Ontario, but on any bill of sale you might want to include "as-is" language, just to make it entirely plain that you are not saying the vehicle is driveable or certifiable.

This will be disclosed in the Used Vehicle Information Package. When I go to the MTO this afternoon, I won't have a Safety Certificate to present, so the "Unfit" designation will be on the paperwork by default.

 

[larry]

If it speeds through photo radar, they will have a plate number. Given that you do not transfer the plates when you sell the car, those plates will not trace back to the original owner, but rather to the owner of the plates.

oh yeah. wasn't thinking'. thanks.

 

[Larry_Fyne]

I sold a car privately a few years ago. I sold is "as is" and had a bill of sale made up indicating same. 4 years later I get a phone call from a guy who bougght the car recently - got my name from the owners manual that was still in the glove box. His question, did I do timing belt maintenance at the 100k mark. Told him I did it twice because I sold it with 214k on the clock. A few weeks go by and I get a supena to testify in court - he was suing the person that he bought it for for misleading the mileage. Long story short, the guy I sold it to never registered the vehicle. He did some minor things to it and sold it. When he sold it to a women, she got the car portion of the registration with my name and signature. She thought she bought it from me. In between the time I sold it and she bought it, the guy spun 100k of the odometer.

The guy who sued won the case. She was responsible to know the mileage. I asked about the mileage that you have to write down on thelicense renewal - they do nothing with it!

 

[OddSox]

Gee, but what happens if your house burns down the same night with the bill of sale and the old plates and then there's an earthquake and the car you sold falls onto a little old lady crossing the street? Sheesh, worrying about this shit in this day and age will make you old before your time...