Richard Wagner's "Die Meistersinger von Nurnberg"

[submissivedave]

OK ... I have heard this opera many times and have read the shit about it presented by different positions and peoples.

I currently own a copy by the EMI label, conducted by Herbert von Karajan. Without understanding any German, I always have to read the booklet that came with the CDs to understand what the fuck they are singing. What is helpful is that the booklet also has a large chunk of commentary. That aside and the other material I have read, I just want to know what other people think of this opera ...

Thanks man !!!

PS - please don't give me that shit about pro-Nazism. Hitler doesn't know anything about Wagner, Nietzsche nor art ...

 

[train]

It has a good beat but you can't dance to it .


Why do you care what other people think . If you like it enjoy it !

 

[Joker]

I like opera but don't know that one. Maybe I'll pick it up from the library and burn myself a copy; the library is the best place to find opera.

 

[submissivedave]

It has a good beat but you can't dance to it .


Why do you care what other people think . If you like it enjoy it !

Cause, I wanna understand it more and maybe other people will pick up things I didn't pick up ...

 

[Astra]

Love, lost and won again.

SD:

My mother attempted to imbue a love of the arts in me, unfortunately, I cannot in all honestly say that she was exceptionally successful. O well, onto to the Opera:

From what I can recall it's more or less the story of love, jealously, betrayal and finally, love conquering all! Walther visits Nurnberg, falls in love with Eva, who has been offered up by her father along with all his worldly possessions as the prize in the Master Singing Contest (American Idol being the modern day equivalent). Walther applies to become a Master Singer so that he can enter the contest, but he's tutor has no faith in him and totally confuses the hell out of him so that he misinterprets the entrance singing rules and also the judge is Beckmesser who fancies Eva himself so Walther doesn't get into the Singer's Guild.

Walther is miffed about this to say the least, goes off and he and Eva decide to elope. Elopement is foiled by Sachs who is also secretly in love with her, but she has told him of her feelings for Walther and he helps them out. Whilst trying to prevent Eva and Walther from eloping a riot breaks out - much fighting and violence etc. (Wahn! Wahn! Ueberall Wahn! (Madness/Delusion Everywhere) - perhaps best part of the opera).

Walther writes a fantastic song - which Beckmesser steals thinking it's been penned by Sachs, Beckmesser booed off stage as he can't sing the song properly - Walther told to come out and sing it - which he does and sings it to perfection (of course). He's immediately voted into the Master Singer's Guild, an honour which he at first (wounded pride and all that) refuses, but as it means he's won the contest and can marry his little Eva, he finally accepts.

Morgenlich leuchtend in rosigem Schein (Bathed in morning's rosy glow) is perhaps one of the most popular songs from the Opera, whilst the most controversial and presumed by some schools of thought to be pro Hitler/pro-nazi song is Judenthum in der Musik (Judaism in music) which was actually a dig at Eduard Hanslick (a noted music critic of the time) whose maternal lineage was Jewish.

note translations are my interpretation only.


As the opera is from 1867/1868 the Hitler link is extremely tenuous to say the least and we all know that Hitler was not a great lover of the arts. Added to which, the arts should, in my humble opinion transcend politics.

There you have my view of the opera - it is like most operas a love story, this one ends happily for all concerned - not only did it entertain the masses, it also managed to poke fun at the music industry (critics) of the day.

I'm fortunate enough to understand the opera's native language of German, which is a disadvantage for Wagner (Italian is truly the international language of music) and Wagner is unfortunately, from my standpoint, too pragmatic and pedantic and really unable to fully convey the raw emotions which the characters undergo.

... Astra

 

[Goober Mcfly]

I always wanted to do it to Wagner's Ride of the Valkyries.

 

[eyeofthedragon]

insert quote - the smell of ______ in the morning its the smell of victory

 

[Berlin]

beer.

 

[submissivedave]

Re: Love, lost and won again.

note translations are my interpretation only.


As the opera is from 1867/1868 the Hitler link is extremely tenuous to say the least and we all know that Hitler was not a great lover of the arts. Added to which, the arts should, in my humble opinion transcend politics.

There you have my view of the opera - it is like most operas a love story, this one ends happily for all concerned - not only did it entertain the masses, it also managed to poke fun at the music industry (critics) of the day.

I'm fortunate enough to understand the opera's native language of German, which is a disadvantage for Wagner (Italian is truly the international language of music) and Wagner is unfortunately, from my standpoint, too pragmatic and pedantic and really unable to fully convey the raw emotions which the characters undergo.

... Astra

Interesting Astra ... I enjoy reading your commentary. I had never regarded it as a purely love story nor comedy ...

To me, Die Meistersinger had always been political/philosophical in disguise of "a competition" ...

Same with other of Wagner's stuff ... to me he is a Romantic of the purest form and he does portray that in his works very well.

Yes, I would agree that he is political, but does not and definitely does not pave the way to be classified as a predecessor to Nazism.

I also think I know why Nietzsche both admired him and hated him and could never make up his (Nietzsche) whether Wagner was a "true artist" or not ...

Nonetheless, Wagener was definitely a critic of art although he was an artist himself ...

All in all, I thank you Astra for your suggestion. You have made me view Die Meistersinger from a more simple, love oriented perspective instead of political-sizing everything ...

SD

 

[Astra]

All in all, I thank you Astra for your suggestion. You have made me view Die Meistersinger from a more simple, love oriented perspective instead of political-sizing everything ...

It's really not necessary to thank me at all Dave - I just gave you my view of the opera. It's possible that I don't have the depth of intelligence to attach a political/philosophical perspective to the piece. It's also possible that, not being politically orientated, I over simplify things. Whatever, I'm glad to have been of some help.

However, I thank you for posting a thread of substance.

... Astra

 

[submissivedave]

The thing is, I realize that we humans always tend to over-complicate shit. It is definitely better to look at things for what it really is ... I mean I fuck myself over this hobby because I think too much about it an complicate shit ...

In all its essence, this hobby is really sex/companionship for money ... its a business transaction, a purchase of service if you will ...

But, I think and think and shit ... I think so much that it has a pyschological effect on me that it makes me unable to cum when I am with an SP ...

What I am saying is maybe we, as humans should just be more simple minded and not think too much about shit ... you know what I mean?

After all, why do we have nostalga over our childhoods? Its because we had the most fun, were pure and innocent. Yet, as we get older, we complicate shit, become corrupt and life is not as beautiful and simple anymore ...

So, you have taught me to return to our souce ... to recognize that there is still love ... not just poilitical shit man ...


Thanks again ...

 

[Top Jimmy]

without interpreting the work itself, just FYI you can NEVER go wrong with a recording by Von Karajan. I perfer his orchestral work on the Deutsche Grammophon label, but he was truly the last of the great "Monster" conductors.

EMI (and their subset the "Angel" label) are better known for their choral and operatic works than for any other subgenre of classical, so I'm sure the version you have is awesome.

Thanks for the recommendation

 

[i_am_good]

classics

Hey dave,

I like your taste in music! I've actually been in a major symphony orchestra and performed Die Meistersinger. It's FABULOUS! It's rich and full; a great piece that any strings player would love. Isn't it also known as the Wild Dove or am I thinking of another opera?

You must also enjoy Shostakovitch (symphony #5) which is rife with political mockery.

Hey, maybe you should call the TSO and see if they have any positions open! You could be the person that writes all the great stuff in the concert programs!

 

[submissivedave]

Re: classics

Hey dave,

I like your taste in music! I've actually been in a major symphony orchestra and performed Die Meistersinger. It's FABULOUS! It's rich and full; a great piece that any strings player would love. Isn't it also known as the Wild Dove or am I thinking of another opera?

You must also enjoy Shostakovitch (symphony #5) which is rife with political mockery.

Hey, maybe you should call the TSO and see if they have any positions open! You could be the person that writes all the great stuff in the concert programs!

Holy fucking shit !!!! You've actually played Die Meistersinger !?!?!?!?!?!?! DAMN MAN !!!!! RESPECT !!!!!!!!!

Yeah man ... the part that stays in my mind about Die Meistersinger is the last part with the wicked violins man ...

Another favourite piece with violins that I enjoy is Beethoven's violin concerto in D Major, Op. 61 with Menuhin on violin (again on the EMI label ... hehehe)

Tell me more about Shostakovtich please and his symphony number #5. Sounds cool man !!!!!!

As for writing for the TSO, well, I know I don't qualify yet. Maybe further in my life time and when I have a better understanding of classical music and operas. Right now, I wold definitely classify myself a "novice" ... but thanks for the suggestions though ...

 

[submissivedave]

EMI (and their subset the "Angel" label) are better known for their choral and operatic works than for any other subgenre of classical, so I'm sure the version you have is awesome.

I was actually "accidentally" introduced to it. Here is the story:

One day I was in the HMV downtown on Yonge St. I was looking at the Wagner section to see what new stuff was out. I guess my facial expression was pretty fucked up when I saw all the nasty stuff that they had on the shelves. Suddenly a really tall dude with neck length hair started talking to himself as he was beside me.

Some how we were started to have a conversation and he noticed that I had a copy of Lohengrin in my hand by the DECCA label. Suprisingly, he started to bitch out at me and told me that the DECCA label was shit and that they were just out to make money. So, he went through the shelves for me and picked out a Lohengrin by the EMI (Angel Records) label and emphasized that I should buy this label instead. Plus, the EMI one was conducted by Rudolf Kempe ... so, I did not complain. To my surprise, the EMI one was a hell lot cheaper then the DECCA one too ...

So we talked and shit and it turned out that he was a German studies professor in Toronto to do some shit. (And of course he was also an "authentic German") Our conversation was very interested and he even told me that he attends the Bayreuth Festival where all the Wagner fanatics go ...

We talked for like an hour and so into it that the sales person walked over and join our conversation ... it was good talk ... hehehe

So, since then, I have been loyal to the EMI label ...

 

[Ogenstein]

London/Decca

I have London/Decca recordings of Scheherezade and Beethoven's 9th. While not immaculate in terms of recording (the concerts were recorded 40 years ago) the performances are beautiful and better than others I've heard.

Because of those two successes, I asked for a London/Decca version of La Traviata, with Pavarotti singing the lead. It's okay but it has no magic. I've heard better snippets. I was very disappointed.

This in my opinion, is one of the problems that classical music has. I'm a casual fan but I don't want to become a scholar in order to buy a CD.

 

[submissivedave]

Re: London/Decca

This in my opinion, is one of the problems that classical music has. I'm a casual fan but I don't want to become a scholar in order to buy a CD.

Oh ... I know what your saying man. I get fucked over by all the stuff out there.

Not only do you have to buy a good label, you also have to look for a good conductor a good orchestra and if the piece has some solo stuff ... you got to know who's playing the instrument on that part ...

Fuck, some of the catalogues for one single label is like a freaking thin dictionary ... LOL

 

[Top Jimmy]

Here's the basics... and I mean this as a guideline only:

Labels are like Car manufacturers. A Mercedes will always be a Mercedes, but as soon as someone starts eating their lunch (eg an Acura), then Mercedes will start making a lesser Mercedes (Kompressor or something)

The Old Standard-Bearers: Deutsche Grammophon, London, EMI all have top-of-the-line recordings, but as the schlock started coming out in the Under-$10 zone, they all introduced sub-labels like "Weekend Classics" or "Musikfest", with either Analogue recordings just remastered, or a way to move units of a lesser recording when they also offer the primo, all-digital version, or the version with the best conductor/orchestra.

There are upstart labels that got in on the Classical revival when CD first came in, like Telarc for example. They snapped up (then) lesser-known orchestras and conductors, and through superior technology, made them famous. Robert Shaw and the Atlanta, Lorin Maazel and the Cleveland, Empire Brass and the replacement for John Williams and the Boston Pops: Erich Kunzel and the Cincinnati Pops Orchestra (whom I saw several times when I lived in the US)

The best way to get quality recordings that you will like is to first buy inexpensive sampler CD's, usually put out to promote new releases on a label at a very inexpensive price, then determine first the style you actually like (Orchestral, Baroque, Opera, etc) and then the pieces you recognise and/or like. From there, its only a matter of some 'Net research, chat forums and your local library for publications like the Green CD Guide (if its still around) which was my fave, as it listed both a reviewers rating and and average of submitted readers ratings in every issue.

Hope this helps.

PS, if you go to Amazon.com, and look under Shostakovich, not only do they show the London Philharmonic version (on London Records) conducted by Haitink, but you can listen to exerpts in Windows media or Realplayer, and read a discussion of the merits of this recording vs Bernstiens et al by a bunch of people who remind me of the sage saying:

"Opinions are like assholes. Everybody has one."

... and thats just mine.