Protesters - Keystone oil pipeline.

Ceiling Cat

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Feb 25, 2009
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It seems to me that the proposed Keystone oil pipeline to bring tar sands oil to the Gulf of Mexico will in the long run will bring benefit to the United states and Canada as well as stabilize oil price and lessen political and economic tensions around the world. The environmental impact of any spill from the pipeline will be minimal because of safety systems that will shut down the pipeline if a loss of pressure is detected. Any loss of oil from the pipeline will hundreds of thousands of times less than what happened in the BP oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico and can be cleaned up in days. Transporting oil by pipeline is safe and efficient, trucking the oil to the U.S. will use up hundreds of millions of gallons of oil as well the cost to the environment .
Having an oil pipeline to the U.S will lessen oil dependency from the middle east. At this time there is wild speculation in oil, every time there is political tension from oil producing countries oil prices take a hike. I see the Keystone pipeline as a stabilizer of political and economic tensions.
 

jwmorrice

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Jun 30, 2003
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In the laboratory.
At the risk of giving Rockslinger the heebie-jeebies, there's this view of the matter:

http://business.financialpost.com/2011/11/02/the-more-its-delayed-the-less-keystone-will-be-needed/
The more it's delayed, the less Keystone will be needed
Nov 2, 2011 – 6:31 PM ET | Last Updated: Nov 7, 2011 9:14 AM ET


Big Oil’s big focus on new unconventional oil deposits in the United States may present a new challenge for the proposed Keystone XL pipeline: The more it’s delayed, the less it will be needed.

Hydraulic fracturing and horizontal drilling technologies that transformed the natural-gas sector in the past five years are beginning to show success when applied to unconventional oil deposits, boosting U.S. oil production decades after it supposedly peaked.

High oil prices make this new source attractive and it has big advantages over the oil sands: It’s not as greenhouse gas-intensive to produce; it’s not as PR-challenged, even if the new technologies also have their critics; and it’s homegrown, making it more acceptable to U.S. protectionists.

Devon Energy Corp., previously a natural gas-focused company, provided a glimpse into the potential of the new oil source in third-quarter results released Wednesday. The Oklahoma City-based company directed 90% of its capital to oil and natural-gas liquids targets this year.


The company increased its liquids production by 17% year-over-year, to an average of 226,000 barrels a day.

While some of those liquids came from its position in the oil sands and other Canadian oil plays, some of it came from U.S. fields such as the Permian basin, the Barnett shale and the Granite Wash.

“In the future … we are going to continue to allocate the vast majority of our capital, 90% plus, to the liquids-rich plays,” executive vice-president David Hager said in a conference call. “I would expect that for some time frame the liquids growth rate will be consistent with what we are achieving this year, in the upper teens.”

Exxon Mobil Corp. is also looking for unconventional oil in the U.S. It has positions in the Bakken, the Permian, the Woodford shale and is exploring other liquids plays in the United States, including the Utica shale.

“Oil analysts may be making the same mistake as their counterparts in natural gas five years ago by failing to fully appreciate the revolutionary production changes that could ultimately transform oil output worldwide,” Reuters market analyst John Kemp said in a recent report.

While U.S. oil production is rebounding, the U.S. State Department is doing its best to slow Canada’s production down.

On Wednesday, it backed away from its commitment to approve the Keystone XL pipeline by the end of the year, saying it may have to take more time to decide if it will give the project a permit.

The delay chokes production growth in the oil sands because the sector has no backup plan on the same scale and time line.

The U.S. unconventional p-oil stampede started about five years ago in the Bakken field in North Dakota, where new technologies pushed production to 444,000 barrels a day in August, from about 100,000 b/d in 2005.

But it’s in the past two years that companies moved in a big way into shale oil and gas rich in liquids, which fetch the same price as oil.

The U.S. Energy Information Administration said in its October outlook that oil-directed drilling increased U.S. crude oil production by 110,000 b/d in 2010, and by an additional 180,000 b/d in 2011, to 5.68 million b/d.

Meanwhile, reliance on imports declined. Liquid fuel net imports, including both crude oil and refined products, fell to 49% of total U.S. consumption in 2010 from 57% in 2008 because of rising domestic production and a decline in consumption during the economic downturn. The EIA forecasts that liquid fuel net imports’ share of total consumption will decline further to 46% in 2011 before rising slightly to 47% in 2012.
 

Mervyn

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Dec 23, 2005
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I say screw the pipelline, refine the stuff here in Canada, then send it south.
 

Mencken

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Oct 24, 2005
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I say screw the pipelline, refine the stuff here in Canada, then send it south.
LOL...still need as much pipe to send it south..refined or as crude. In fact shipping crude oil is probably more efficient than shipping refined products. If you ship refined products you have to keep them all seperate...whereas crude is just crude. That's why it makes sense to refine closer to the end user.
 

OddSox

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May 3, 2006
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LOL...still need as much pipe to send it south..refined or as crude. In fact shipping crude oil is probably more efficient than shipping refined products. If you ship refined products you have to keep them all seperate...whereas crude is just crude.
You're right - I suspect a pipeline filled with gasoline might be just a little more dangerous than crude oil!
 

wigglee

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Oct 13, 2010
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build a pipeline to Thunder Bay and refine it there....then ship the gas by water. We can't keep playing into the trap of being dependent on good relations with the States. They will fuck us in a minute....again. Buy America, anyone?
 

JohnLarue

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Jan 19, 2005
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build a pipeline to Thunder Bay and refine it there....then ship the gas by water. We can't keep playing into the trap of being dependent on good relations with the States. They will fuck us in a minute....again. Buy America, anyone?
I hate to burst your bubble, however
1. A new refinery cost well in excess of a billion $- Only a handful of Canadian energy companies could manage that cost and all of them would pass.
There is not a lot of $ to be made in refining and the environmental liabilities are enormous.
The last refinery built in North America was over 25 years ago. There is a reason for that
2. Thunder Bay ?
You want to ship petroleum products across the great lakes via tankers ?
Not going to happen
 

Mervyn

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LOL...still need as much pipe to send it south..refined or as crude. In fact shipping crude oil is probably more efficient than shipping refined products. If you ship refined products you have to keep them all seperate...whereas crude is just crude. That's why it makes sense to refine closer to the end user.
To hell with the US, I don't want to see them selling back our crude to use after they refine it, to hell with that, refine it ourselves so more money and jobs stay here.
 

fmahovalich

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Aug 21, 2009
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Tell me...Im not up on this story... Why does this tar sand oil have to be piped to the gulf of Mexico.

Why are we not processing it here and selling gas.

Or why not just pipe it over the border....USA could set up refineries in North Dakota....and then ship the refined product from there.

I just don't understand why the sludge has to be piped so far.

Anyone?
 

groggy

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Mar 21, 2011
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Last year we pumped 6% more CO2 into the atmosphere then the previous year. That's mostly on the back of India and China's coal consumption.
The tar sands are not quite as dirty, but they're pretty close.
They really shouldn't end up in the air.
 

fmahovalich

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Aug 21, 2009
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Tell me...Im not up on this story... Why does this tar sand oil have to be piped to the gulf of Mexico.

Why are we not processing it here and selling gas.

Or why not just pipe it over the border....USA could set up refineries in North Dakota....and then ship the refined product from there.

I just don't understand why the sludge has to be piped so far.

Anyone?
 

Mervyn

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I would guess the company that is paying for all of this is in Texas , and they already have the refineries there ready and waiting, and they don't want to spend more money on new refineries ? ?
 

fanofdo

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Tell me...I’m not up on this story... Why does this tar sand oil have to be piped to the gulf of Mexico.
As in many cases there isn't just one answer - certainly one of the biggest reasons is that the refining capability already exists in the Gulf area, but just as importantly the distribution capability also exists. Another reason is that a pipeline, the entire way to the Gulf, gives a reliable supply, north to south throughout the US. Eventually, branch connections at any point along the line can be made if required. Not all crude will go all the way to the Gulf.

Why are we not processing it here and selling gas.
That would be a feasible solution if gas was the only end product of the crude. The fact is that refining the entire crude stream is complex when you add in distribution, environmental and other logistical issues. Gasoline is one component of the crude - and not the majority. Once the gasoline comes off something needs to be done with the remainder of the crude stream and it needs to be done economically. You could set up a refinery to cut the gas out of the crude stream, but it would be cost prohibitive to then have to ship the remaining hydrocarbon stream to another refiner or chemical plant. For this reason, where you see a refinery or chemical plant, you often see many. The crude is cracked at a refinery and several products are captured - the unused part is sold to a "chemical plant next door" that further refines and / or reacts it to create another product. In fact, it isn't uncommon to have several product streams transferred back and forth between plants.

The result is that there is a very integrated set of plants that have been built up over time by several different companies, each with their own expertise. In fact, the entire capability does exist in Alberta. To process the additional gas, you also need to add expansion of all the other plants. Each one of these plants has their own logistical and distribution issues.
 

fmahovalich

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If it (refineries) are in Alberta...would it not be wise for CANADIANS to continue to refine...add value...then sell the various products.

Given that refineries make a profit...presumably...and Alberta has the largest oil fields almost in the world.... we should be up to speed with refineries here!
 

Ceiling Cat

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Feb 25, 2009
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This pipeline is going through, protesters or not. The U.S. Government wants this pipeline because it is of economic, geo-political and military importance. The middle east oil producers are have all the countries of the world at a disadvantage because they have a large oil supply and can hold it back and raise prices when ever they want to. The U.S. Government wants to increase supplies of oil to lessen dependence on Middle Eastern oil. Not all of the oil shipped from the Alberta tar sands will be refined immediately for use, a portion of this oil will be stored. The U.S. Government has as of May 31, 2011, in the Strategic Petroleum Reserve current inventory of 726.5 million barrels (115,500,000 m3) stored for emergency use.
There is just so much more capacity to store oil beyond the 34 days of inventory. They may be able to stretch that to 60 or 90 days. A better alternative is to have the oil on tap from the Alberta tar sands.

Having the oil pipeline in place will mean that during times of military emergency there will be a amply supply of oil for military and civilian use. Geo-politically having the oil pipeline will lessen dependency from middle eastern oil for all nations to some extent, economically the oil pipeline will lower prices for consumers and the U.S. economy will not loose billions of dollars buying Middle eastern oil.

Oil is money, money is power. This is the U.S. governments move to lessen the influence of middle eastern oil on the world.

Obama releasing 30M barrels from US oil reserves
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Obama-releasing-30M-barrels-apf-2233806614.html?x=0

In June of this year the U.S. government released 30 million barrels of oil from the Strategic Petroleum Reserve, this caused the price of oil to drop, imagine if the U.S. government has the oil pipeline in place and can depend on a good oil supply to put in reserve as well as more oil on tap. What powers they would have. High oil prices put a damper on the world economies and send money to the middle easter oil producers. Imagine if the U.S. released reserve oil every time the oil prices spiked?

The U.S government wants and needs this oil pipeline, reducing eastern oil dependency is in the best interest of all nations.
 

fmahovalich

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Aug 21, 2009
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The smartest thing the USA is doing is finding ways to use oil from OTHER COUNTRIES first....including Canada.

If you use up all the foreign oil...until all foreign oil is consumed....you are the last man standing with oil!!

And the USA has lots of it!!!

Voila..you own the world!!

SMART!!
 

Cobster

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It seems to me that the proposed Keystone oil pipeline to bring tar sands oil to the Gulf of Mexico will in the long run will bring benefit to the United states and Canada as well as stabilize oil price and lessen political and economic tensions around the world.


lmao ya right keep dreaming... (and wtf is up with this red larger size font????)

At this time there is wild speculation in oil, every time there is political tension from oil producing countries oil prices take a hike. I see the Keystone pipeline as a stabilizer of political and economic tensions.
Again, keep dreaming.
 

fanofdo

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If it (refineries) are in Alberta...would it not be wise for CANADIANS to continue to refine...add value...then sell the various products.

Given that refineries make a profit...presumably...and Alberta has the largest oil fields almost in the world.... we should be up to speed with refineries here!
Considering the economics and logistics only (admitting there are political and tactical decisions), it IS happening somewhat - you will never control it all. The issue as I said, it isn't just refineries. It is chemical plants, power plants, transportation infrastructure and markets to sell the goods.

The chemical industry presents some unique challenges - adding at plant is a significant increase to the world supply of a given commodity. For example, Nova Chemicals built a facility in Joffre in the late 90's. One of the end products was polyethylene - when that product came to market, it took polyethylene from a profitable product to a break even product - many smaller producers lost money and were closed or bought out. The primary reason is that you can not build a small chemical plant that is profitable - any 'world scale' build significantly affects the market supply, significantly dropping prices.

Supply of gas and other primary hydrocarbon products has handled the increased demand in the last 30 years primarily by 'debottlenecking' the plants. New technology, operating efficiency through better control and incremental investment has allowed facilities to increase their throughputs and meet demand. Investors know building a new facility anywhere will immediately cause a huge supply imbalance, decreasing the price of their product to the point it isn't profitable.
 

JohnLarue

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If it (refineries) are in Alberta...would it not be wise for CANADIANS to continue to refine...add value...then sell the various products.

Given that refineries make a profit...presumably...and Alberta has the largest oil fields almost in the world.... we should be up to speed with refineries here!
There are chemical processing refineries (natural gas) in Alberta
I do not think there is a crude oil refinery there
Anyone confirm, deny?

As mentioned before the cost of a new oil refinery is prohibitive
 
Ashley Madison
Toronto Escorts