My heartfelt sympathy to the people of Russia over the tragedy which just happened
- Thread starter mandrill
- Start date
very tragic
oagre, i am with you on this. i cant fathom why these warlords and terrorists, have to bring children into this. my deepest sympathies and condolences to those who lost children and loved ones in this incident. senseless and totally needless killings of innocents.
Plyrs99
oagre, i am with you on this. i cant fathom why these warlords and terrorists, have to bring children into this. my deepest sympathies and condolences to those who lost children and loved ones in this incident. senseless and totally needless killings of innocents.
Plyrs99
There seems to be a sort of inevitable conclusion to how these hostage situations are ending, especially recently. I can understand why the Russian government refuses to negotiate with these terrorists, but I don't believe it would matter anyway. The hostage takers of today are only interested in creating as much attention as possible, and then killing themselves with as many victims as they can. Very sad, but Russia, and the world, can only expect more of this.
When I saw the picture on the front of the newspaper today of a rescuer holding a bloodied body of a child, I thought of my nephews and neice.
The children did nothing to deserve this.
It is an act of destruction, based on lies, the false promise of martydrom, all for vanity and personal gain.
It is evil. Pure and simple evil.
The children did nothing to deserve this.
It is an act of destruction, based on lies, the false promise of martydrom, all for vanity and personal gain.
It is evil. Pure and simple evil.
Couldn't agree more, I'm waiting for TJO to arrive on this thread and talk about relative morality.....happygrump said:
OTB
Let's face the fact that these terrorist actions didn't happen because people simply decided to be evil. No, it's all part and parcel of a dirty little war in Chechnya and the philosophy of 'an eye for eye, a tooth for a tooth, a dead child for a dead child'.
It's a hideous situation in which so many innocent civilians have suffered and continue to suffer. However, western governments have generally turned a blind eye to the whole mess.
Here's a more or less typical article on what goes on there. It's from the New Statesman.
jwm
NS Special Report - The conflict the west always ignores
Lindsey Hilsum
Monday 26th January 2004
Russian policy in Chechnya is breeding terrorists, writes Lindsey Hilsum
Two images from a forgotten war: an emaciated 13-year-old boy, unable to absorb food because of shrapnel in his stomach; and an old man who has lost his mind and is yelping like a dog, then is calmed by the sight of his own face reflected in the small mirror that his wife holds before him.
The images are from 1999, when Russian troops went to pacify what President Vladimir Putin called "a bandit enclave". Five years later, the war in Chechnya sputters on with no end in sight. Chechen rebels, who are mainly Muslims, lay landmines and ambushes that kill dozens of Russian soldiers every month. The Russian security forces are reported to use death squads that "disappear" anyone they think might support the rebels.
In the past year, a new force has come on the scene: a Chechen militia known as the "Kadyrovsky" because of its loyalty to Russia's puppet president in Grozny, Akhmad Kadyrov. The Kadyrovsky terrorises those who would resist his rule.
In Chechnya, human rights abuses and war crimes are not aberrations but tactics, an integral part of a war that, according to the American aid group Refugees International, has killed or driven into exile nearly half the Chechen population. Atrocities carried out by Russian troops and their proxies are well documented, but attract almost no censure from European or American governments because Putin's war in Chechnya is deemed to be part of the war on terror.
"We're not dealing with indifference. We're not dealing with ignorance. We're dealing with tactical expediency," said the former US national security adviser Zbigniew Brzezinski at a recent conference on Chechnya in Washington. "After 9/11, it is deemed better to sweep this issue under the rug, even though we know better."
To be continued in next posting.
It's a hideous situation in which so many innocent civilians have suffered and continue to suffer. However, western governments have generally turned a blind eye to the whole mess.
Here's a more or less typical article on what goes on there. It's from the New Statesman.
jwm
NS Special Report - The conflict the west always ignores
Lindsey Hilsum
Monday 26th January 2004
Russian policy in Chechnya is breeding terrorists, writes Lindsey Hilsum
Two images from a forgotten war: an emaciated 13-year-old boy, unable to absorb food because of shrapnel in his stomach; and an old man who has lost his mind and is yelping like a dog, then is calmed by the sight of his own face reflected in the small mirror that his wife holds before him.
The images are from 1999, when Russian troops went to pacify what President Vladimir Putin called "a bandit enclave". Five years later, the war in Chechnya sputters on with no end in sight. Chechen rebels, who are mainly Muslims, lay landmines and ambushes that kill dozens of Russian soldiers every month. The Russian security forces are reported to use death squads that "disappear" anyone they think might support the rebels.
In the past year, a new force has come on the scene: a Chechen militia known as the "Kadyrovsky" because of its loyalty to Russia's puppet president in Grozny, Akhmad Kadyrov. The Kadyrovsky terrorises those who would resist his rule.
In Chechnya, human rights abuses and war crimes are not aberrations but tactics, an integral part of a war that, according to the American aid group Refugees International, has killed or driven into exile nearly half the Chechen population. Atrocities carried out by Russian troops and their proxies are well documented, but attract almost no censure from European or American governments because Putin's war in Chechnya is deemed to be part of the war on terror.
"We're not dealing with indifference. We're not dealing with ignorance. We're dealing with tactical expediency," said the former US national security adviser Zbigniew Brzezinski at a recent conference on Chechnya in Washington. "After 9/11, it is deemed better to sweep this issue under the rug, even though we know better."
To be continued in next posting.
Continued from the New Statesman:
Despite considerable danger to its staff, the Russian human rights group Memorial manages to document atrocities. In one case, a young woman described how masked men abducted her brother, Aslanbek, after two Russian soldiers had been blown up near where he was tending the family's cattle. She believed the kidnappers were Russian soldiers taking revenge, even though her brother had nothing to do with the explosion. "We are worried that we will never find his body and bury him," she said. "In Chechnya it is widely known that when people are taken without shoes, like Aslanbek was, it means they will never be seen again."
Shoes, according to the International Helsinki Federation for Human Rights, which monitors Chechnya closely, are something that can identify a body. The Russian army has learnt how to cover its tracks.
The main reason to question the European and US policy of turning a blind eye to the Chechen problem is that Russian tactics do not work. There is no evidence that Russia's hard line in Chechnya has discouraged Chechens from joining the Islamist networks that threaten terror attacks in Europe. On the contrary, the Russian campaign in Chechnya seems to be breeding terrorists.
The latest are the "black widows", who have carried out a series of bomb attacks in Russia and were behind the 2002 Moscow theatre siege. They are the widows, mothers and sisters of Chechen men, mainly Islamists, who have been killed by the Russians. Last year, one killed 14 people and injured 53 others at a rock concert in Moscow; and last month two detonated a bomb outside the National Hotel near the Kremlin. One thing that Chechnya isn't short of is widows. The Russian response, according to the International Helsinki Federation, has been a "growing number of crimes targeted at women", including disappearances.
Now the war in Chechnya may be spreading to the neighbouring republic of Ingushetia. Last year, Russian troops attacked Chechen refugee camps in Ingushetia and several clashes between Russian and Chechen forces erupted on the Ingush side of the border. President Putin has just announced that the remaining Chechen refugee camps in Ingushetia must close by 1 March - two weeks before the Russian presidential elections.
Putin has no chance of being ousted, but it is part of his election campaign to present the war in Chechnya as over. No matter if the refugees have nowhere to go because their homes have been destroyed, nor if they fear the dangers that await them back home.
Only the bravest journalists report from Chechnya - the chances of being kidnapped are high, while the cold, lack of electricity and general misery of the place make it difficult to work in. Moreover, the news likes things that change and Chechnya never does - the violence may alter as new forces appear, but the story essentially remains the same.
Tony Blair maintains that intervention in one place where people are tortured and oppressed doesn't mean we can or should intervene everywhere. But Chechnya is a shameful example of western leaders refusing to confront another government on human rights abuses and war crimes because, in the end, strategic and political issues matter more. Chechnya is complex and dangerous and miserable, and we just don't care enough to try to make a difference.
A Chechen website provides a weekly report - this is week 228 of the war. In broken English, it catalogues pain and violence. Last week's entry ended: "The world in which we live is full of dirt and meanness."
Lindsey Hilsum is the Channel 4 News diplomatic correspondent
Despite considerable danger to its staff, the Russian human rights group Memorial manages to document atrocities. In one case, a young woman described how masked men abducted her brother, Aslanbek, after two Russian soldiers had been blown up near where he was tending the family's cattle. She believed the kidnappers were Russian soldiers taking revenge, even though her brother had nothing to do with the explosion. "We are worried that we will never find his body and bury him," she said. "In Chechnya it is widely known that when people are taken without shoes, like Aslanbek was, it means they will never be seen again."
Shoes, according to the International Helsinki Federation for Human Rights, which monitors Chechnya closely, are something that can identify a body. The Russian army has learnt how to cover its tracks.
The main reason to question the European and US policy of turning a blind eye to the Chechen problem is that Russian tactics do not work. There is no evidence that Russia's hard line in Chechnya has discouraged Chechens from joining the Islamist networks that threaten terror attacks in Europe. On the contrary, the Russian campaign in Chechnya seems to be breeding terrorists.
The latest are the "black widows", who have carried out a series of bomb attacks in Russia and were behind the 2002 Moscow theatre siege. They are the widows, mothers and sisters of Chechen men, mainly Islamists, who have been killed by the Russians. Last year, one killed 14 people and injured 53 others at a rock concert in Moscow; and last month two detonated a bomb outside the National Hotel near the Kremlin. One thing that Chechnya isn't short of is widows. The Russian response, according to the International Helsinki Federation, has been a "growing number of crimes targeted at women", including disappearances.
Now the war in Chechnya may be spreading to the neighbouring republic of Ingushetia. Last year, Russian troops attacked Chechen refugee camps in Ingushetia and several clashes between Russian and Chechen forces erupted on the Ingush side of the border. President Putin has just announced that the remaining Chechen refugee camps in Ingushetia must close by 1 March - two weeks before the Russian presidential elections.
Putin has no chance of being ousted, but it is part of his election campaign to present the war in Chechnya as over. No matter if the refugees have nowhere to go because their homes have been destroyed, nor if they fear the dangers that await them back home.
Only the bravest journalists report from Chechnya - the chances of being kidnapped are high, while the cold, lack of electricity and general misery of the place make it difficult to work in. Moreover, the news likes things that change and Chechnya never does - the violence may alter as new forces appear, but the story essentially remains the same.
Tony Blair maintains that intervention in one place where people are tortured and oppressed doesn't mean we can or should intervene everywhere. But Chechnya is a shameful example of western leaders refusing to confront another government on human rights abuses and war crimes because, in the end, strategic and political issues matter more. Chechnya is complex and dangerous and miserable, and we just don't care enough to try to make a difference.
A Chechen website provides a weekly report - this is week 228 of the war. In broken English, it catalogues pain and violence. Last week's entry ended: "The world in which we live is full of dirt and meanness."
Lindsey Hilsum is the Channel 4 News diplomatic correspondent
One cannot also forget that the rules of engagement have been altered since there is so much 3rd party involvement. It looks as if in this situaiton Al Qaida was involved and aside from their own specific brutality the simple reality that they are from there makes it all the more easy to escalate the level of violence.Asterix said:
While there always exceptions the efforts of terrorists/freedom fighters, (depending upon who writes the history), historically have been rooted in both present and future results. Attacking soft targets doesn't tend to garner you much sympathy to your cause which suggests either you don't care about what the world thinks or can do for you or it suggests that the people behind the attacks don't particularly care about what image is taken on by the supposed source of the rebellion.
In this case Al Qaida gives a rat's ass about what happens to Chechnia but they have found in them some more lemmings to die for THEIR cause. Results and future repurcussions be damned.
If you're going to "liberate your country" it is always preferable to do it yourself.
T.
it happened before and it is endless...
pain is too deep to even talk about it...
... among those bombers were women... I still cannot belive they've done that...
pain is too deep to even talk about it...
... among those bombers were women... I still cannot belive they've done that...
I grew up with them.tommer said:
my blood is of similar colour.
I am a mother. My basic instinct is to love and protect. Not to kill.
and I don't get it.
I came from there. No article would say what I know... My skin kept smell of smoke of burned down houses and my eyes dry of no tears, as I don't cry no more when my people die.Asterix said:
there is a scar on my heart.
I love them deeply, but cannot help.
JW, Winston, very well said. Many of the mothers that have lost their sons and daughters in Chechyna, due to the Russian intervention, are being called Black Widows by walking into crowded Moscow streets, laced with explosives and blowing themselves up.
I can't imagine what it would be like to lose your children in such a way. As Winston says "Violence breeds Violence", an Eye for an Eye mentality and the little ones suffer as do the Moms and Dads...in both countries,
I can't imagine what it would be like to lose your children in such a way. As Winston says "Violence breeds Violence", an Eye for an Eye mentality and the little ones suffer as do the Moms and Dads...in both countries,
Re: My heartfelt sympathy to the people of Russia over the tragedy which just happened
It's all George Bush's fault.oagre said:
I am willing to bet that Putin retaliates in a big big way.
Russians will settle for no less. The world will look the other way.
To tell you the truth, I will look the other way too.
Russians will settle for no less. The world will look the other way.
To tell you the truth, I will look the other way too.
In the last couple of days, I've learn something about the Chechnya situation - a situation I knew almost nothing about before. The same issues were raised on another board I frequent which has some active Russian participants. Truth differs depending on where you are from and what you read. The Russian guys didn't feel that the population of Chechnya had suffered particularly harshly and they felt that much of what is read in the West is distorted propaganda. They also felt that the Russian population of chechnya was initially harshly persecuted by the Moslem population and that this is what led to the military intervention.
Whatever may be the case, the Chechnyans have done themselves unutterable harm by targeting small children. Any sympathy most Westerners might feel for them has evaporated now.
Whatever may be the case, the Chechnyans have done themselves unutterable harm by targeting small children. Any sympathy most Westerners might feel for them has evaporated now.
