Liberals will vote against Tory gun law: Ignatieff

[canada-man]

Liberal Leader Michael Ignatieff says he wants to reform the controversial gun registry, and has asked his caucus to vote against a bill that would scrap it.

To win the support of reluctant Liberal MPs, Ignatieff said the registry should be amended to make it easier on owners of shotguns and rifles, particularly those who live in remote regions.

Ignatieff has suggested abolishing fees needed to obtain, renew or upgrade a gun licence. First-time infractions for failing to register a firearm should become a "simple, non-criminal ticketing offence," he said, and not a criminal offence. He also pledged to make the registration process easier.

"If we want and need people to register their firearms, we shouldn't be creating unnecessary obstacles," Ignatieff said at a Canadian Police Association conference.

"Canadians want gun control that works, and that treats gun owners fairly," he said. "But we won't abandon gun control. Not when rifles and shotguns are responsible for half the police officers killed in the line of duty in the last few years. Not when the gun registry is a vital tool that law enforcement uses every single day."

Some Liberals and NDP members voted with the Tories when a private member's bill came up for second reading in November. Bill C-391, would scrap the registry if passed on its third and final reading. It would also destroy the registry's records on about seven million shotguns and rifles.

Liberals who voted for the bill in November weren't punished. But with his proposed reforms, Ignatieff said his caucus will be required to vote against the bill at its third and final reading, which is expected to take place in May.

It remains to be seen whether the party will vote in unison. But Liberal whip Rodger Cuzner said he's confident that the proposed reforms have assuaged members of the caucus who have been critical of the registry.

"I'm very pleased with the conversations we've had with those who have had concerns," Cuzner said on CTV's Power Play. "And I'm sure that those conversations will continue."

"We're looking forward to the full support of caucus on this," he added.

Should Liberal MPs vote unanimously against the bill, it could still be passed if enough New Democrats support it. NDP Leader Jack Layton has not said whether MPs in his party would face disciplinary measures if they vote for the bill at final reading.

The registry contains information on about seven million guns. Opponents say it's too expensive, infringes on the rights of law-abiding gun owners and does little to keep guns out of the hands of criminals.

However, the Canadian Police Association, the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police, and the Canadian Association of Police Boards all support the registry.

RCMP Deputy Commissioner Bill Sweeney has also spoken out in support of the registry.

"I believe that there's compelling evidence that the registry promotes officer and public safety," Sweeney told the Commons public safety committee in March.

In 2009, the long-gun registry was accessed by police 11,000 times a day, according to a Liberal press release.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNe...gun_registry_100419/20100419?hub=TopStoriesV2

 

[gramage]

While I am as anti-HANDgun as any knee jerk lefty I hate the long-gun registry. Whether it's being accessed or not hunting weapons are not being used in any large degree of criminal activity and there's no need or benefit hasseling hunters.

 

[landscaper]

hand guns have been registered for 50 odd years, the long gun registry was an idea whos time never came. Aside from the massive cost overruns the effectivness of the program was questionable. The oft reported 10000 checks a day is a littel disingenuous, the regisrty is automatically accessed when ever a cop in Canada requests a name check.

The other issue even with the hand gun issue is that the crimninals are not registering their weapons, the honest people do that.

 

[anon1]

Can we get the $2,000,000,000 back?

 

[fuji]

The other issue even with the hand gun issue is that the crimninals are not registering their weapons, the honest people do that.

All illegal guns began life as legal guns. Someone, somewhere sold them to a criminal. A gun registry helps find out who that person was by recording the last legal owner of the gun.

This doesn't help with guns smuggled from the insanity south of the border, not at least until the Americans get a clue and set up a registry of their own (I'm not aware of a right to bear secret arms) but we can reduce that smuggling problem with better border controls and a crackdown on smuggling operations. A fair number of illegal guns in Canada are actually sourced in Canada anyway and the registry definitely helps there.

 

[fuji]

While I am as anti-HANDgun as any knee jerk lefty I hate the long-gun registry. Whether it's being accessed or not hunting weapons are not being used in any large degree of criminal activity and there's no need or benefit hasseling hunters.

That's untrue, while handguns are used more often in gun crimes, long guns still make up a substantial percentage--something like 25% of the crime. Up until the 1990's it was actually a 50-50 split between handguns and long guns but in recent years there's been a dramatic shift towards handguns in crime, especially in major cities.

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/daily-quotidien/080220/dq080220b-eng.htm

 

[Brill]

We register cars, even safe and honest drivers have to sign up and they don't cry about being "hassled" or say that it's too expensive. The reason the gun registry costs so much is because of those fighting it.

I like Iggy's amendments though, make it simpler and with non criminal penalties if it's not linked with a crime.

 

[slowpoke]

I hope we're seeing signs of a new Iggy. A few days ago, he floated the idea that graduating doctors, nurses and nurse practitioners would be forgiven a portion of their student loans and receive assistance in finding jobs for their spouses etc. if they would set up practice in rural areas where we have a shortage of doctors. This won't completely solve the doctor shortage in rural Canada but it makes a certain amount of sense, it isn't terribly expensive and it may help the situation. Iggy needs to oppose but it is encouraging to see him come up with some constructive ideas as well.

Now we have Iggy's proposal to reform the gun registry. This is a reasonable and constructive approach insofar as it removes the costs to rural gun owners and recreational shooters but maintains the benefits of knowing the make, model, serial number, location and owner identitiy of all the legal handguns and long guns out there. Legal long guns seem pretty innocuous in the hands of law-abiding citizens, hunters, recreational shooters, rural residents etc. But once they are stolen, they are in the hands of thieves who will sell them to anyone with the necessary cash. That sawed-off shotgun under someone's car seat or coat will be easier to trace if it had been registered and subsequently reported stolen. If the original owner never registered it, he'd have less reason to report it stolen because it can't be traced back to him. But if it was registered, he will want to make sure the authorities know exactly where and when it was stolen so he won't be implicated if it is subsequently used in a crime. This registry is not a perfect solution but it does have its merits. Iggy has proposed something reasonable to assist the police in keeping track of long guns. Harper just wants to appease his conservative constituency by completely removing accountability for long gun ownership.

 

[landscaper]

All illegal guns began life as legal guns. Someone, somewhere sold them to a criminal. A gun registry helps find out who that person was by recording the last legal owner of the gun.

This doesn't help with guns smuggled from the insanity south of the border, not at least until the Americans get a clue and set up a registry of their own (I'm not aware of a right to bear secret arms) but we can reduce that smuggling problem with better border controls and a crackdown on smuggling operations. A fair number of illegal guns in Canada are actually sourced in Canada anyway and the registry definitely helps there.

Illegal handguns in Canada are for the most part smuggled in from the states, weapons do not have to be sold to a criminal , theft of weapons is rampant, there is a thriving rental market in the Toronto underground. The bulk of the weapons used in crimes in Toronto are in fact hand guns, most are smuggled in from the States. Improved border controls and putting repeat offenders behind bars where the can not violate release or parole terms would also help. It would be interesting to see what percentage of weapons offences are committed by repeat offenders. I am guessing it is not a small percent.

 

[fuji]

The bulk of the weapons used in crimes in Toronto are in fact hand guns, most are smuggled in from the States.

Stats? You don't win this point if it turns out to be a hair over half the guns are smuggled from the states that does not invalidate the gun registry, as 30-40% of guns is still a lot of guns. To invalidate the registry you'd have to show it was like 90% or so coming from the states. Anything less and the gun registry can make a difference.

My understanding is that guns sourced in Canada are a major problem, and that they enter the criminal world somewhere along the supply chain, owing to being improperly registered. By "major problem" I think that accounts for somewhere between a quarter and a half.

 

[danmand]

When the chiefs of police wants the gun registry, because it will help the police,
that is good enough for me.

 

[anon1]

When the chiefs of police wants the gun registry, because it will help the police,
that is good enough for me.

Why, do you want the police to form government policy?

 

[red]

While I am as anti-HANDgun as any knee jerk lefty I hate the long-gun registry. Whether it's being accessed or not hunting weapons are not being used in any large degree of criminal activity and there's no need or benefit hasseling hunters.

why should it we register cars then? or have driver's licences. its only an issue if a criminal is driving a car.

 

[landscaper]

you would still have to be registered to own a weapon. ie., if you want to buy a rifle or a shotgun you would have to take your safety course and register as an owner of a weapon. Individual handguns need to be registered as a .38 cal colt etc. The difference is once you pass your safety test and police check for your FAC you can buy a shotgun or a rifle , the police would be able to check and see if you are a registered owner, it would tell them that you hold an FAC and if you own a handgun. If you hold an FAC the police will know and can take precautions. The big difference the long gun registry will be gone, individual long guns will not be registered, the fact that you are legally entitled to have one will still be available to the police.

 

[landscaper]

Stats? You don't win this point if it turns out to be a hair over half the guns are smuggled from the states that does not invalidate the gun registry, as 30-40% of guns is still a lot of guns. To invalidate the registry you'd have to show it was like 90% or so coming from the states. Anything less and the gun registry can make a difference.

My understanding is that guns sourced in Canada are a major problem, and that they enter the criminal world somewhere along the supply chain, owing to being improperly registered. By "major problem" I think that accounts for somewhere between a quarter and a half.

http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2009/07/29/10300786.html
This is a quick search and I found it on Wikipedia. It is not definitive but it covers most of the relevent points.

 

[fuji]

Your link says 2/3rds of guns seized originate south of the border, which leaves another 1/3rd that could be stopped via the registry. No doubt we should increase pressure on the US and on smugglers to stop the flow of the other 2/3rds as well.

Do you think that getting rid of 33% of the illegal guns is not an appropriate goal?

 

[OddSox]

Your link says 2/3rds of guns seized originate south of the border, which leaves another 1/3rd that could be stopped via the registry. No doubt we should increase pressure on the US and on smugglers to stop the flow of the other 2/3rds as well.

Do you think that getting rid of 33% of the illegal guns is not an appropriate goal?

That's the most ridiculous piece of logic I have ever heard of. You do know that the registry has nothing to do with handguns? And the registry doesn't have anything to do with stopping gun ownership?

 

[fuji]

That's the most ridiculous piece of logic I have ever heard of. You do know that the registry has nothing to do with handguns? And the registry doesn't have anything to do with stopping gun ownership?

Actually the registry covers handguns, and always has, or did you not know that? It was being extended to cover long guns as welll, as they're used in about a quarter of gun crimes.

Is it your opinion that most gun crimes are committed by legal gun owners?

It is my opinion that most crime is committed with illegally owned guns. The purpose of a registry is to track the legal guns so that they stay legal guns, so that the point at which they become illegal guns can be identified. Doing that effectively would close off the supply of about a third of the illegal guns in Canada, per landscaper's statistic.

 

[red]

you would still have to be registered to own a weapon. ie., if you want to buy a rifle or a shotgun you would have to take your safety course and register as an owner of a weapon. Individual handguns need to be registered as a .38 cal colt etc. The difference is once you pass your safety test and police check for your FAC you can buy a shotgun or a rifle , the police would be able to check and see if you are a registered owner, it would tell them that you hold an FAC and if you own a handgun. If you hold an FAC the police will know and can take precautions. The big difference the long gun registry will be gone, individual long guns will not be registered, the fact that you are legally entitled to have one will still be available to the police.

whats the big deal about registering each rifle?

 

[landscaper]

I actually don't really have a problem with registring them, the problems I have are, 1) the ridiculous amounts of money wasted trying to get it running, a cub scout troop could have organized that better. 2) The constant obfuscation from the liberal powers that be in charge of it, if anybody remembers they were intent on not releasing anything until forced to. ( sounds sort of familier....) 3) The disinformation that is following it around to this day.