Legal Question: Incall culpability!

Quirt

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Feb 26, 2003
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I have heard that if you are caught during a raid during an incall, that if there are only the 2 of you <client & SP> that there can be no "found in" charges, as anything btwn 2 consenting adults is permitted...

Once you are in aplace with 3 or more people, the legality can change where charges are concerned....

Any info?
 

torE

meow
Feb 1, 2003
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www.theredzone.com
Quirt,

The Criminal Code of Canada defines a common bawdy house as a place that is:

(a) kept or occupied, or

(b) resorted to by one or more persons

for the purpose of prostitution or the practice of acts of indecency;
{http://www.canlii.org/ca/sta/c-46/sec197.html}
 

Quirt

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Thank you

torE said:
Quirt,

The Criminal Code of Canada defines a common bawdy house as a place that is:

(a) kept or occupied, or

(b) resorted to by one or more persons

Thanks TorE...in places like Hong Kong there is an evationary practice of one girl per appartment...wondered if it were the same here
 

Quirt

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Two's company

Cardinal Fang said:
In State College, PA there is a by-law on the books that limits the number of females in an apartment to 3. Apparently this is a throw back to a time when they were trying to outlaw brothels!
I can barely keep up when there's only 2 ladies....
3 should be illeagal!
 

Quirt

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Limited risk

Yeah, I agree Blue...there seems to be little risk with a discrete operation, I just like to be prepared for the worst and limit my risk.
 

oldjones

CanBarelyRe Member
Aug 18, 2001
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Back to the definition:

It says "by one or more persons". So one person all by themselves can "by keeping, occupying or resorting" can make a place a bawdy house?
Guess ya gotta watch that resorting, if yer tempted to do any of it at home.
 

taperman

Fun with duct tape
Feb 10, 2003
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common bawdy-house" «maison de débauche»
"common bawdy-house" means a place that is

(a) kept or occupied, or

(b) resorted to by one or more persons

for the purpose of prostitution or the practice of acts of indecency;

If you are a swinger and bring people home for a little playtime that can be considered a bawdy-house. If you just like to bring people home for sex that too is considered a bawdy-house.
check this site out for more on Canadain Laws http://laws.justice.gc.ca
 

Zep

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taperman said:
check this site out for more on Canadain Laws http://laws.justice.gc.ca
This is a good link. One would think though that "minimal risk is involved" with a discreet operation, as long as the incall provider wasn't running an obvious cat house. As one said earlier other motivating factors could also be a key factor in having LE observing a particular place. Although, I still do feel more comfortable with outcall services with a lady.
 

Kathy P

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I write this on informed authority (friends and clients who are cops). First of all, the issue is not how many women work in an in-call/brothel situation. The legal issue is, "is this a place where prostitution services are REGULARLY provided. In a bust situation, the cops will send in three under cover "johns". If they are promised a sexual service and there's an exchange of money, then it's a legal bust. The cop(s) do NOT have to go through with the call although some do and then perjure themselves for sake of saving grace/looking credible. It's the offer that makes it an offence. Once the offer's made and the cops can prove that it's not a singular event then the lady can be busted for keeping a common bawdy house. This is why some ladies will use hotel rooms and change regularly. Sort of like a floating crap game. If she can't be proven to be regularly providing sexual services in one place, then she can't be found guilty of keeping a common bawdy house.

In terms of the swingers clubs or excessively sexually active adults, that is not a common bawdy house because there is a lack of financial exchange. There has to be an exchange of money with a promise of sexual services for that money. That's why swingers' clubs that advertise, like Club Privie for example, specifically state that the membership fee you pay to be invited to their parties is for membership into the club, not for a promise of sexual services.

As for the enforcement issue, I have been told by at least four Toronto cops that they are not interested in shutting down independent service providers. The only time they investigate someone is when it comes to their attention for other reasons: immigration issues, underage girls, drugs, excessive noise complaints from other tenants, etc. One place I worked at in downtown Toronto drew attention because the four or five girls working there were ordering food from delivery services at unusual hours and the noise and traffic involved made a noisy neighbour suspicious.

Having said that, I have been told by cops that they don't have the same attitude towards agencies that are running in-call services because they see that as predatory (agencies making money from the labour of others). As well, a lot of agencies are into large profits that are usually unreported to Revenue Canada which is seen as another incentive to close them down.

Another factor, too, is where you're operating. Toronto cops are less concerned than say Durham or Peel. Where you operate can be an issue, too. If you're using a house in a residential area and a neighbour suspects something's up (as in the case of the Madam in North York who was into domination), that can sometimes be your downfall. A cop I know told me that it is easier to put a house under surveillance than it is an apartment which makes their job easier.

Another issue is public visibility. The police like to be seen to be doing their job. I used to have a client who was a photographer with a newspaper. Once or twice a year, he would get a call that the police were going to bust a massage parlour or make random calls to in-call services. He was asked to be on stand-by to take photographs of those being arrested. He would tip me off by telling me not to answer the telephone that night.

The current political will, in Toronto at least, is that out of sight is out of mind. Streetwalking is seen as a nuisance and so therefore a justifiable target. If an independent lady is running a clean business and isn't drawing negative attention to herself, there should be no problem for her. That's not to say that it won't be the same somewhere like Mississauga or Oshawa. Every locale has it's own perceptions of this business.

Hope this has been helpful!
 

Quirt

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Many thanks!

Kathy: Thats the type of info I really appreciate.

As always common sence answers that are clear and logical.
 

Kathy P

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Thanks for the vote of confidence guys. When I first started working in the business, I naturally had questions. I discovered though, by talking to people, that there were a lot of people, particularly women working in the business, who didn't know a thing about the legal aspects of their work. I took it upon myself to find out the answers figuring that being knowledgable was the best self-defence. Interestingly enough, the general consensus I've discovered is that why it's illegal, if it's done properly, this business is ignored in Canada by law enforcement. In other words, it's on the books but they don't want to enforce it. They have other priorities. So, if you play by the unofficial rules and don't give them a reason to investigate you, they won't. Having said that there are always rare exceptions!
 

taperman

Fun with duct tape
Feb 10, 2003
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Sorry Kathy
Any place where indecent acts are preformed regularly is considerd a bawdy-house. It is not the finacial transaction that makes a bawdy-house. The transaction if done in a public place or in view of the public or on open public air waves is soliciting for the purpose. The swingers clubs are a place like a bar where people meet. They don't preform indecent acts at the club. A place where swingers hold parties regularly CAN be considered a bawdy-house. http://laws.justice.gc.ca read the law for your self. It may not be common to have a raid at a place like that, but it is possibale. LE can follow throught the act and lie to you. (It may not be in thier favor when thier sposes find out.) Dont be mis lead if they tell you they are not a cop and follow you back for the full service.
http://www.theredzone.com/outside1.htm this link explanes a little on that.
It's funny how such a fun and decent act is called indecent
 

Kathy P

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I am sorry, Taperman, but I don't agree with you. The common bawdy house charge has nothing to do with indecent acts. An indecent act, under the definition of the Criminal Code of Canada, is a sexual act that happens in public view. For instance, if a lady solicits you and then you drive somewhere, park and she performs a sexual act in the car on you and the police view what's happening then it is conceivable that any member of the public could have viewed it so that makes it indecent. I heard of one case in Hamilton, where a john and sp drove to a remote location and their lawyers successfully argued their case to acquittal based on the fact that it was an isolated spot where it wasn't conceivable that anyone would see them. The visibility to the public is the element of the charge that makes it indecent.

If people are performing sexual acts in a bawdy house, they aren't indecent if they are done out of the view of public. Keeping a common bawdy house and committing an indecent act are two totally different charges under the criminal code. The financial transaction and the regularity of it in one place is the most important/salient element of keeping a common bawdy house a crime because it is an exchange of money for sex in a place where it is regularly occurring. As for a cop following through with the call, of course it happens. What I was trying to differentiate is that they don't have to make the charge stick criminally.

As for the swingers' clubs, the only time they get charged is when sexual acts take place in a public club/bar, etc. Club Privie, a swingers' club in Toronto, has private parties in a private home. Therefore, any sexual acts that take place there are not done in a public space hence there is no offence committed. Just think of it: you invite over three couples who are friends, everyone gets a little drunk and decides to have an orgy. According to your definition the homeowner is keeping a common bawdy house! It doesn't work that way. There has to be a financial exchange for sexual services and in a place where it is happening regularly, over a period of time.

Again, though, I must stress indecent acts are a totally different kettle of fish. That is a charge that is almost exclusively the domain of streetwalkers and men who approach them and IS actively cracked down on by law enforcement because it is seen as nuisance causing and property value defacing in that it runs down neighbourhoods. Because that is a visible crime that upsets people who have it happening in their neighbourhood, there is the political and law enforcement will to pursue it and charge people. That is a totally different ball game than the bawdy house situation.
 
Ashley Madison
Toronto Escorts