Left & Right Wing Preoccupation

[slowpoke]

Most western democracies have a fairly clear sense of the differences between liberals and conservatives. In the vast majority of these countries, people are still able to discuss issues rationally without fixating on left / right wing labels to the extent I'm seeing on this board. At the time of this writing, the Politics & International Affairs forum is overwhelmingly about US politics and the American obsession with Liberal vs. Conservative thinking.

These are the 25 current threads on page 1 of this forum. Eleven of those 25 were started by either OTB, americanson or Langweile and only two are devoted entirely to Canadian issues:

President Pledges to Rebuild San Francisco

More Sickness From The Radical Left

Anti War Crowd Lost War of Expectations?

Howard Dean...a present to the Republicans?

Hell No, We Wont' Go

Social Security Reform in the US

Funny or offensive??

North American politicians need more of this

The ten most underreported humanitarian stories

For Every Harpers Article Bashing the Right

Deep Throat (Get your mind out of the gutter: this is the politics forum)

Dems demand investigation into how GOP shill got White House press by

Just to confirm..what I knew all along...

An interesting critique of the right

N. Korean Nukes

Why Americans are considered warmongers...

The 'Exit Strategy' Democrats

The Next Bush Victory?

Even Clinton Wasn't This Bad

yychobbiest is John Kerry?

Retaliatory Duties against US Wine & Spirits

Walmart

Jean Chrétien @ Gomery Commission/ CPAC (Channel 68)

How to Offend an American

Paul Martin @ Gomery Commission/ CPAC (Channel 68)

Maybe I'm just biased, but it seems that the Canadians here on terb, for example, can usually discuss an issue without undue concern over how far left or right leaning their argument will be perceived. This is important because there are valid arguments on either side and it requires a certain amount of flexibility to consider both. A real discussion requires listening. Labels don't help. So lets lose this destructive left vs right mindset, and maybe have an intelligent discussion - Canadian style. Please??

 

[papasmerf]

personaly I like my wings served very crisp with a medium sauce, blue cheese, celery and carrot sticks.

 

[langeweile]

Most western democracies have a fairly clear sense of the differences between liberals and conservatives. In the vast majority of these countries, people are still able to discuss issues rationally without fixating on left / right wing labels to the extent I'm seeing on this board. At the time of this writing, the Politics & International Affairs forum is overwhelmingly about US politics and the American obsession with Liberal vs. Conservative thinking.

These are the 25 current threads on page 1 of this forum. Eleven of those 25 were started by either OTB, americanson or Langweile and only two are devoted entirely to Canadian issues:

President Pledges to Rebuild San Francisco

More Sickness From The Radical Left

Anti War Crowd Lost War of Expectations?

Howard Dean...a present to the Republicans?

Hell No, We Wont' Go

Social Security Reform in the US

Funny or offensive??

North American politicians need more of this

The ten most underreported humanitarian stories

For Every Harpers Article Bashing the Right

Deep Throat (Get your mind out of the gutter: this is the politics forum)

Dems demand investigation into how GOP shill got White House press by

Just to confirm..what I knew all along...

An interesting critique of the right

N. Korean Nukes

Why Americans are considered warmongers...

The 'Exit Strategy' Democrats

The Next Bush Victory?

Even Clinton Wasn't This Bad

yychobbiest is John Kerry?

Retaliatory Duties against US Wine & Spirits

Walmart

Jean Chrétien @ Gomery Commission/ CPAC (Channel 68)

How to Offend an American

Paul Martin @ Gomery Commission/ CPAC (Channel 68)

Maybe I'm just biased, but it seems that the Canadians here on terb, for example, can usually discuss an issue without undue concern over how far left or right leaning their argument will be perceived. This is important because there are valid arguments on either side and it requires a certain amount of flexibility to consider both. A real discussion requires listening. Labels don't help. So lets lose this destructive left vs right mindset, and maybe have an intelligent discussion - Canadian style. Please??

Does those "Canadian style" discusiion rules apply, when you and your boys bash Bush and the USA?
Come down from your high horse. You guys are no better, when it comes to that.

 

[Peeping Tom]

Politics by their very nature are adversarial.

 

[onthebottom]

Slowpoke,

There is a bit of right/left bashing on both sides, and you're right it is usually an intellectual shortcut. I'm happy to discuss any issue without labels as long as I don't have to hear "shrub" "right wing" "amerikkka".... you get the idea.

I am amused at the scarcity of threads about Canada (especially if you subtract those threads whining about US barriers to trade ;-). I've just assumed nothing important or interesting happens up there - every time there is a Canada based thread I ask questions and do a bit of research. Unfortunately they always die out quickly or disintegrate into a Bush bash. Bit sad actually.

In addition to the left/right labels I'm also annoyed at the freedom some feel to criticize US policy with no need to suggest an alternative, something I'm going to start calling Monday morning Canucking. Don't like Iraq, Iran, North Korea US policy, great, what would you do differently (let's just ignore the point about Canada actually doing something - that's not very realistic).

OTB

 

[onthebottom]

OTB: You're more than willing to bash anyone who doesn't agree with you.
You're a miopic hypocritic. You'll dish it out but you can't take it.
Go simmer in your own stew. You don't give a damn about anyone that
disagrees with you. You're full of yourself and stay south of Columbus or
we'll have to duke it out some day.

Don

PS: The Tribe is going to kick the Twins ass this baseball season.

This from Mr. "and fuck your mother" LOL

And no, the Tribe has no chance against the Twins AGAIN this year.

If someone disagrees with me I argue with them if I think they are wrong. I don't think that was the point of the thread.

OTB

 

[onthebottom]

You're all lip and no legs. Other than sitting on your fat ass when did
you ever risk anything for our country. Tell me OTB what excuse did
you use to avoid serving in the military? What did you ever do to serve
our country? A Rush Limbaugh wannabe is all you are. Now you want
to slander my mother. You're a sniveling coward. Go crawl in a hole.

Could we add content free personal attacks to those things we don't need on this board?

OTB

 

[happygrump]

This preoccupation with left vs. right in this forum seems to be primarily because the current divisive nature of the Washington power structure. Maybe I'm wrong - that's happened before, and I have the divorce papers to prove it - but it looks to me that supporters from both sides (actually, there are more than 2, but you get the idea) are more interested in cloaking themselves in ideology than in actually making valid arguments to back their point.

That's really too bad, because even though I may have fundamental disagreements with the politics of papasmerf, langeweile and to a lesser extent OTB, I can often see the pathway of logic that leads them to their conclusions. I may disagree with the logic - the adherence to the now-discredited supply side economic theories, for instance - but I understand how the arguments are created.

I did a short experiment recently in a thread about Dupont and the potential harmful nature of Teflon. Instead of jumping all over Dupont like a bad smell, I made a deliberate choice to voice an opinion that is diametrically opposed to my actual thoughts on the issue. It was quite good fun, actually! However, I suddenly found myself on the receiving end of a host of emotionally-charged and rather useless arguments. So, I must admit a large degree of respect for those who choose to swim against the predominantly liberal current in this thread.

As far as personal attacks go, well, they say more about the attacker than the supposed victim. They say even more when the spelling is bad.

 

[slowpoke]

Does those "Canadian style" discusiion rules apply, when you and your boys bash Bush and the USA?
Come down from your high horse. You guys are no better, when it comes to that.

It is possible to take issue with Dubya and his foreign policy without it degenerating into the same tired old left vs. right name calling. There are a few Americans on this board, yourself included, who seem to have nothing better to do than to drone away endlessly about every scrap of US news, the US right vs. the US left etc. It is, IMHO, stupifyingly boring.

I suspect most Canadians want to know about the latest US invasion, events in Iraq, presidential elections, front page news etc., but not every last detail of American political life. Why should we care? Give it a rest. A great many of those posts bashing Bush / USA are happening on inflammatory threads started by Americans like yourself. Aren't there any US boards for you to go and project your national interests onto? At least on a US board it might be interesting.

 

[onthebottom]

Strange, truly strange. I thought our country relished freedom of speech.
Yet, you are the first to deamonize those that disagree with your view.
Strange, truly strange. Why is your skin so, so thin. I would think you
would relish criticism and discourse. But, you don't. If others challence,
you deamonize

Why do I call you a Rush wannabe? Because that's how you come across.

Don

PS: The Twins are wannabes that never made it to the League or Championship
finals.

That's funny because I distinctly remember sitting at a World Series game as the Twins won the 7th game. Nice 3rd base seats my father gave me because he was in a friends box behind home plate. Meet Senator Kerry that night, in said box.

I'm happy to debate policy, ideas, politics, I just don't relish in the name-calling that seems to charge you up so much.

OTB

 

[sizematters]

A major, no - the major - problem in the US is the incredible disparity
between the rich and the poor. Don

DQ, Canada has this problem as well.
I'm unclear on the connection you are making between rich/poor, left/right...if indeed you intended such a connection. Please expand...

 

[langeweile]

It is possible to take issue with Dubya and his foreign policy without it degenerating into the same tired old left vs. right name calling. There are a few Americans on this board, yourself included, who seem to have nothing better to do than to drone away endlessly about every scrap of US news, the US right vs. the US left etc. It is, IMHO, stupifyingly boring.

I suspect most Canadians want to know about the latest US invasion, events in Iraq, presidential elections, front page news etc., but not every last detail of American political life. Why should we care? Give it a rest. A great many of those posts bashing Bush / USA are happening on inflammatory threads started by Americans like yourself. Aren't there any US boards for you to go and project your national interests onto? At least on a US board it might be interesting.

On a few occassions I have posted some Canadian issues. With mediocre results. Is is my fault? I don't think so.
I found most Canadians pretty detached from their own politics. Is it because they don't care or is it because they have surrendered and don't feel they can change anything.
Ottawa has raised property taxes two years in a row now, has cut municipal services, while at the same time raised politicians salaries by 20%.
There was zero reaction within the city. Everybody just rolled over and went to an anti-Bush demonstration?
Your goverment has thrown away millions of $$ in sponsorship money, while some Canadians on this very board suggested, that the investigation was a waste of money.
Billions of $$ have been lost in that nightmare called "gun registry" however the same people are still in power?
On more than one ocassion I was trying to discuss Canadian politics, but somehow it has always turned in to an anti-American/Bush thread. Why?You tell me.

 

[someone]

I am amused at the scarcity of threads about Canada (especially if you subtract those threads whining about US barriers to trade ;-). I've just assumed nothing important or interesting happens up there - every time there is a Canada based thread I ask questions and do a bit of research. Unfortunately they always die out quickly or disintegrate into a Bush bash. Bit sad actually.OTB

I think that there is a very simple reason why the threads on American issues last longer here. That is because you will find very few Canadians that worship their PM and even if they did, they would be embarrassed to admit it. Hence, there are no born again types willing to defend Martin (or whoever) to the death. However, there are clearly a handful of Americans on this board that seem to think that Bush is the second coming (I will be polite and not name them but I think everyone can think of examples). Thus, it is like arguing with one of those born again Christians trying to sell you religion on the street. The arguments can go on as long as people take the time to respond.

 

[langeweile]

How interesting this thread has deteriorated in to a Bush/American bashing. Well there is a new concept.

Just a few clarifications:

1) I am not a born again Christian. Never have been never will be

2) I am a conservative first and a Bush supporter second. There is many issues I don't support him in.
a) Medicare reform
b) Deficit
c) Pork barrel spending
d) Support for ILLEGAL immigrants
e) National drivers license standards.
f) Continued troop presence in places like Europe and Korea.
etc.etc.

3) Bush is in a line of many presidents that soon will be gone. I am not defending HIM to the death.
I am just a bit tired of canadians hiding behind Bush to further their agenda on continous anti-americanism.

If some of you need further proof, than I respectfully refer you to the previous post.
To call ALL Bush supporters somehow religous extremists is just plain wrong. It is full of prejudice and mean spirited.
Remember how the thread started out and remember where we are now.

 

[onthebottom]

It is possible to take issue with Dubya and his foreign policy without it degenerating into the same tired old left vs. right name calling. There are a few Americans on this board, yourself included, who seem to have nothing better to do than to drone away endlessly about every scrap of US news, the US right vs. the US left etc. It is, IMHO, stupifyingly boring.

I suspect most Canadians want to know about the latest US invasion, events in Iraq, presidential elections, front page news etc., but not every last detail of American political life. Why should we care? Give it a rest. A great many of those posts bashing Bush / USA are happening on inflammatory threads started by Americans like yourself. Aren't there any US boards for you to go and project your national interests onto? At least on a US board it might be interesting.

Hay Hay ho ho, YYC starts half those thread himself. There were many anti-US/Bush (and those are different things) threads when things were going worse than they are now (and the election was still in play) - what you see is a bit of us on the can't use that term having a bit of fun with it.

I come here because of the different perspective, it would be very easy for me to find a can't use this term board in the US, but how would I learn anything new? I try and read a lot of what is written here, except by young fools just trying to stir things up, because there are a lot of very intelligent people here, and the world is full of people that don't agree with me. Their called wrong ;-)

OTB

 

[onthebottom]

I think that there is a very simple reason why the threads on American issues last longer here. That is because you will find very few Canadians that worship their PM and even if they did, they would be embarrassed to admit it. Hence, there are no born again types willing to defend Martin (or whoever) to the death. However, there are clearly a handful of Americans on this board that seem to think that Bush is the second coming (I will be polite and not name them but I think everyone can think of examples). Thus, it is like arguing with one of those born again Christians trying to sell you religion on the street. The arguments can go on as long as people take the time to respond.

Why does it have to be about people (hint, it doesn't) it's about issues? If you want to talk about Iraq (and we've been doing it at nausea for years here) then do, you will never see me say Bush is the second coming, you will see me support some of his policies. Now I've taken shots at Clinton, Kerry and others, but not to the extent that you see Bush basing on this forum. I'm happy to stick to the issues.

OTB

 

[someone]

How interesting this thread has deteriorated in to a Bush/American bashing. Well there is a new concept.

Just a few clarifications:

1) I am not a born again Christian. Never have been never will be

2) I am a conservative first and a Bush supporter second. There is many issues I don't support him in.
a) Medicare reform
b) Deficit
c) Pork barrel spending
d) Support for ILLEGAL immigrants
e) National drivers license standards.
f) Continued troop presence in places like Europe and Korea.
etc.etc.

3) Bush is in a line of many presidents that soon will be gone. I am not defending HIM to the death.
I am just a bit tired of canadians hiding behind Bush to further their agenda on continous anti-americanism.

If some of you need further proof, than I respectfully refer you to the previous post.
To call ALL Bush supporters somehow religous extremists is just plain wrong. It is full of prejudice and mean spirited.
Remember how the thread started out and remember where we are now.

First of all, you should know that the religious references were analogies. I happened to think that it is a good analogy. Nonetheless, whether you think it is good one or not, I find it hard to believe that you did not pick up that it was meant to be an analogy. Moreover, as an explanation of why threads on American politics go on for so long, I think it is accurate. Few Canadian would want to be seen as so differential to their political leaders as to continually defend them no matter what. Thus, when something negative is posted about Martin (if you do a search you will find a that I have made a few negative posts about Martin) you may find a bit of an exchange but it will die down quickly. Generally, I would say that this is true even in cases were they actually like the leader. Indeed, the only time I have ever had someone get involved in a long debate with me about my negative comments about the Martin was with bbking during the election. And that was just once.

Also, I defy you to find anything anti American in the previous post I made

 

[someone]

Why does it have to be about people (hint, it doesn't) it's about issues? If you want to talk about Iraq (and we've been doing it at nausea for years here) then do, you will never see me say Bush is the second coming, you will see me support some of his policies. Now I've taken shots at Clinton, Kerry and others, but not to the extent that you see Bush basing on this forum. I'm happy to stick to the issues.
OTB

Please see my last post regarding analogies. It is also interesting that although I did not mention names, two of you automatically assume I was referring to you. To me that seems to suggest something about the truth of the analogy (OK in your case, you have the excuse that I was responding to a post you made). BTW, the reason that you see so much criticism of Bush on this board is that it is really hard to think of a worse U.S. president without going back to the 19th century. If Trudeau were still in power in Canada, you would find me making a lot of negative posts about him. However, he is not so there is little reason to debate his bad policies. There is still a reason to debate Bush’s bad policies (not the mention that Trudeau was only bad for Canada and not the world).

 

[langeweile]

how interesting that you're blind to the Canada bashing in this thread....

No i am not, but if you start to attack my country I have the right to defend myself.

 

[someone]

I am just a bit tired of canadians hiding behind Bush to further their agenda on continous anti-americanism.

If some of you need further proof, than I respectfully refer you to the previous post.

BTW, I really am interested in hearing what you found in the post in question that was anti-American. I have reread it a few times and I will be dammed if I can see what you’re referring to.