Kyle Rittenhouse trial

[mandrill]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/us-rittenhouse-trial-begins-1.6233850

First blood to the DA's office. I watched the video of the shootings many times last year and what happened with the first victim was unclear.

Apparently dude was shot three times and the last time was a bullet in his back. Now the vic fell forward towards KR. But even so, it's hard to see how he could have been shot in the back unless he was already on the ground.

That tears apart the idea that I had, which is that Vic #1 grabbed at KR's gun and KR pumped a round into him during the struggle and Vic #1 died. That sounded like arguable self-defence. It's a lot harder to see self-defence, if KR is "finishing the guy off" as he lies helpless on the ground. And if s-d doesn't apply, then it's Murder 2 and the other shootings become far less defensible.

Open to any comments and I would like to keep this non political and partisan.

 

[contact]

the guy could’ve had his body turned at an angle When grabbing the rifle which could/would result in a gunshot wound in the back.

Again as you stated the first shooting is not clear at all so I’m speculating as you are

But in my opinion if he’s cleared on the first shooting the next two are self-defense one of the guys he shot was holding a pistol and the other guy was attempting to hit him with a skateboard

 

[Frankfooter]

The prosecution is arguing that someone else fired a shot before KR.
Can he argue 'feared for his life' if there was a shot fired, or does that not help when Rosenbaum was clearly not the one with a gun?

Or that verbal threats to KR's boogaloo boi friend are enough justification for KR to kill Rosenbaum?

Defense Says Kyle Rittenhouse Was Attacked 'in the Street Like an Animal'

During opening statements on Tuesday, a defense attorney for Kenosha, Wis. shooter Kyle Rittenhouse characterized the teen who killed two people and injured a third during civil unrest in the summer of 2020 as someone who pulled the trigger only after others attacked him "in the street like an...

lawandcrime.com

 

[mandrill]

The prosecution is arguing that someone else fired a shot before KR.
Can he argue 'feared for his life' if there was a shot fired, or does that not help when Rosenbaum was clearly not the one with a gun?

Or that verbal threats to KR's boogaloo boi friend are enough justification for KR to kill Rosenbaum?

Defense Says Kyle Rittenhouse Was Attacked 'in the Street Like an Animal'

During opening statements on Tuesday, a defense attorney for Kenosha, Wis. shooter Kyle Rittenhouse characterized the teen who killed two people and injured a third during civil unrest in the summer of 2020 as someone who pulled the trigger only after others attacked him "in the street like an...

lawandcrime.com

There were probably shots fired numerous times that night. And no one who interacted with KR was armed. It was KR with a gun against two unarmed guys and a guy with a skateboard. So the fact he "heard a shot" wouldn't seem to be relevant.

 

[mandrill]

the guy could’ve had his body turned at an angle When grabbing the rifle which could/would result in a gunshot wound in the back.

Again as you stated the first shooting is not clear at all so I’m speculating as you are

But in my opinion if he’s cleared on the first shooting the next two are self-defense one of the guys he shot was holding a pistol and the other guy was attempting to hit him with a skateboard

Was the third guy holding a pistol? I thought he was unarmed.

Let's do Vic #1. How can he turn his entire back to KR when grabbing at the gun?.... Try it and see how it (doesn't really) work.

Binger emphasized in his opening remarks that the first of the men Rittenhouse killed, Rosenbaum, was shot in the back. The prosecutor noted that the first two shots hit Rosenbaum in the lower extremities, causing him to fall forward. Then came the shot to the back.

 

[contact]

Was the third guy holding a pistol? I thought he was unarmed.

Let's do Vic #1. How can he turn his entire back to KR when grabbing at the gun. Try it and see how it (doesn't really) work.

1 guy had skate board one guy had a pistol iirc a Glock

Neither one of us was there correct?

No clear video or pictures of first shooting im not sure exactly where he was shot if he grabbed the barrel and it was pulled left or right it could spin him then he gets shot

might not matter what actually happened but what the jury believes

 

[mandrill]

1 guy had skate board one guy had a pistol iirc a Glock
Neither one of us was there correct?
No clear video or pictures of first shooting im not sure exactly where he was shot if he grabbed the barrel and it was pulled left or right it could spin him then he gets shot
might not matter what actually happened but what the jury believes

Vic #1 was difficult because the cars obscured the camera's view. I though that Vic #1 grabbed the barrel of the AR and KR pulled the trigger as being the only way he could retain the weapon. The third shot as Vic #1 is falling seems at the very least to be excessive self-defence. Vic #1 is either falling wounded, or already on the ground. And the moment of self-defence has passed.

That also informs the other 2 shootings. If those guys heard MULTIPLE shots and were told that KR fired into a guy who was falling or on the ground, then they have a better case for citizen's arrest - which is likely going to be Vic #3's pitch.

Be interesting to see how the evidence comes out.

 

[Frankfooter]

Vic #1 was difficult because the cars obscured the camera's view. I though that Vic #1 grabbed the barrel of the AR and KR pulled the trigger as being the only way he could retain the weapon. The third shot as Vic #1 is falling seems at the very least to be excessive self-defence. Vic #1 is either falling wounded, or already on the ground. And the moment of self-defence has passed.

That also informs the other 2 shootings. If those guys heard MULTIPLE shots and were told that KR fired into a guy who was falling or on the ground, then they have a better case for citizen's arrest - which is likely going to be Vic #3's pitch.

Be interesting to see how the evidence comes out.

The judge won't allow evidence showing KR was hanging with the Proud Boys, was in a fight recently and was caught saying he would like to shoot shoplifters.
Looks like the judge will allow FBI infrared footage that shows KR instigating and chasing Rosenbaum.

It was during discussion about that video that Binger said prosecutors have infrared surveillance footage that he said shows Rittenhouse chasing Rosenbaum, who was the first person Rittenhouse shot.

Rittenhouse attorney Mark Richards maintained it was Rosenbaum who started chasing Rittenhouse, yelling out, “Kill him!” He said Rosenbaum cornered Rittenhouse in front of a row of cars in a parking lot and threw a bag at him before trying to grab Rittenhouse’s gun.

Binger said the surveillance footage shows Rittenhouse chasing Rosenbaum with a fire extinguisher before Rosenbaum turned to confront him. Binger said Rosenbaum was probably trying to push the barrel of Rittenhouse’s rifle away.

 

[mandrill]

The judge won't allow evidence showing KR was hanging with the Proud Boys, was in a fight recently and was caught saying he would like to shoot shoplifters.
Looks like the judge will allow FBI infrared footage that shows KR instigating and chasing Rosenbaum.

It was during discussion about that video that Binger said prosecutors have infrared surveillance footage that he said shows Rittenhouse chasing Rosenbaum, who was the first person Rittenhouse shot.
Rittenhouse attorney Mark Richards maintained it was Rosenbaum who started chasing Rittenhouse, yelling out, “Kill him!” He said Rosenbaum cornered Rittenhouse in front of a row of cars in a parking lot and threw a bag at him before trying to grab Rittenhouse’s gun.
Binger said the surveillance footage shows Rittenhouse chasing Rosenbaum with a fire extinguisher before Rosenbaum turned to confront him. Binger said Rosenbaum was probably trying to push the barrel of Rittenhouse’s rifle away.

That certainly puts a different spin on things. In the video circulated at the time, Rosenbaum certainly seemed to be the aggressor.

This might remove the self-defence plea entirely if it can be shown that KR instigated and provoked a confrontation. If any of this stuff is true, KR is in deep shit.

 

[Frankfooter]

That certainly puts a different spin on things. In the video circulated at the time, Rosenbaum certainly seemed to be the aggressor.

This might remove the self-defence plea entirely if it can be shown that KR instigated and provoked a confrontation. If any of this stuff is true, KR is in deep shit.

Prosecutors have said previously the surveillance video could show that, at least at some point in the night, it was Rittenhouse who was following and chasing Rosenbaum.

After Craimin took the stand, prosecutors played for jurors a grainy, black and white video taken by Cramin in an airplane flying 8,500 feet overheard.

 

[basketcase]

...

No clear video or pictures of first shooting im not sure exactly where he was shot if he grabbed the barrel and it was pulled left or right it could spin him then he gets shot
...

I could see a fight for a gun resulting is extremities being hit (haven't seen autopsy reports about angles) but have a hard time seeing a way to get hit while fighting for a rifle behind your back. At best, Kyle kept firing after multiple shots.

 

[contact]

I could see a fight for a gun resulting is extremities being hit (haven't seen autopsy reports about angles) but have a hard time seeing a way to get hit while fighting for a rifle behind your back. At best, Kyle kept firing after multiple shots.

again none of us were there and video pics are lacking and I also have not seen the reports
which itself is not illegal you fire until the threat in eliminated if Kyle can prove he felt threatened then force is justified maybe the guy said he was going to take the rifle and shoot kyle then grabbed, it if that's the case force is ok

see what the jury decides

 

[mandrill]

again none of us were there and video pics are lacking and I also have not seen the reports
which itself is not illegal you fire until the threat in eliminated if Kyle can prove he felt threatened then force is justified maybe the guy said he was going to take the rifle and shoot kyle then grabbed, it if that's the case force is ok

see what the jury decides

That's right. But you can't keep firing into a guy who's no longer a threat.

There is also some complicated caselaw that you can't claim full self-defence if you instigated and provoked the situation. So if you called a guy an asshole and pissed on his pant leg and he drew a handgun and you shot and killed him to eliminate the threat, it's just a reduction to manslaughter, not a full acquittal. At least, IIRC.

So if KR went up to the guy and called him an "asshole looter" and the guy chased KR and then there was a tussle for the weapon, there might only be a partial defence. This stuff gets so complicated that I am guessing that there are variations from state to state.

 

[Dave58]

It's the USA , He will get off
If KR would have stayed home and minded his own business no one would have been killed .
If he were dark skinned he'd spend the rest of his life in prison

 

[Fun For All]

This trial is going to have some interesting issues...you can make the 'self defence' case, I think this kid was scared he was going to get the shit kicked out of him and thats why he shot them, but did he have to shoot and why was he there with a firearm anyway.

If he gets convicted, he'll never receive the punishment that a guy who killed two people would get...

 

[Fun For All]

That's right. But you can't keep firing into a guy who's no longer a threat.

There is also some complicated caselaw that you can't claim full self-defence if you instigated and provoked the situation. So if you called a guy an asshole and pissed on his pant leg and he drew a handgun and you shot and killed him to eliminate the threat, it's just a reduction to manslaughter, not a full acquittal. At least, IIRC.

So if KR went up to the guy and called him an "asshole looter" and the guy chased KR and then there was a tussle for the weapon, there might only be a partial defence. This stuff gets so complicated that I am guessing that there are variations from state to state.

There is a reasonable response...you can't shoot a guy because he called you an asshole and pissed on your leg...you can probably kick the shit out of him but not kill him.

 

[jalimon]

It's the USA , He will get off
If KR would have stayed home and minded his own business no one would have been killed .
If he were dark skinned he'd spend the rest of his life in prison

Cannot agree more with that.

He will walk free of that.

You see more and more armed guard everywhere in stores in the US now. Just like in Mexico city. The US is falling hard because of the inequalities.

 

[y2kmark]

The prosecution is arguing that someone else fired a shot before KR.
Can he argue 'feared for his life' if there was a shot fired, or does that not help when Rosenbaum was clearly not the one with a gun?

Or that verbal threats to KR's boogaloo boi friend are enough justification for KR to kill Rosenbaum?

Defense Says Kyle Rittenhouse Was Attacked 'in the Street Like an Animal'

During opening statements on Tuesday, a defense attorney for Kenosha, Wis. shooter Kyle Rittenhouse characterized the teen who killed two people and injured a third during civil unrest in the summer of 2020 as someone who pulled the trigger only after others attacked him "in the street like an...

lawandcrime.com

Apparently this trial judge hasn't banned name calling...

 

[The Oracle]

If KR would have stayed home and minded his own business no one would have been killed .

If there was no one out after a city imposed curfew that night nobody would have been killed either.

 

[mandrill]

If there was no one out after a city imposed curfew that night nobody would have been killed either.

You're a genius, Oracle.

You've figured out that if either the shooter or the vic stayed home that night, no one would've been killed.