Is the Old Liberal Mafia Back In Control In Quebec ?

[train]

Lots of stories in the newspapers about the internal discontent in the Quebec arm of the Federal Liberal party.

When Dion was leader he tried to oust the old Quebec Liberal mafia and it blew up in his face when longtime Chretien bagman and MP Couchon retired in Outremont and Dion's handpicked candidate was defeated in a bye-election.

Iggy picked a new Quebec Lieutenant in Cordere who then picked a well known businesswoman to run in the next election in Outremont. The only problem was Couchon decided he wanted to run again in his old riding. Cordere didn't want Couchon back and told him to get lost. Iggy publically supported Cordere.

Couchon started to call in his old favours and this weekend in a stunning about face Iggy announces Couchon will be the candidate. Cordere is shocked and resigns. His parting comment will ensure the Liberals have an uphill battle in Quebec when he blames it on Iggy listening to his Toronto advisors instead of French Canadians.

Wow. Iggy makes Dion seem politically astute. Who is actually running the party and how did they force a 180 turn in 2 weeks?


As an aside can we please have an end to the whining by the brainwashed Libs when other parties handpick candidates and force them on locsl riding associations. Every party does it so please stop with the holier than thou stamping of the feet when an opposition party does it. It appears the Libs do this as frequently as anyone, just a little more clumsily it seems.

 

[landscaper]

Just wondering what ever makes you think they left?

They are nothing if not crafty political operators, they took a look at Dion and hid in the weeds, just to make sure that nothing stuck on them when he blew up.

Cordere has an ego just slightly larger than the province, he has a record of sticking the family cutlery into people backs starting with Paul MArtin and he has not slowed down.

Whether or not the old operators come out of the weeds depends on whether they thing Ignatief has legs, and from what I have seen so far he is heading for the glue factory.

 

[oldjones]

…edit…
As an aside can we please have an end to the whining by the brainwashed Libs when other parties handpick candidates and force them on locsl riding associations. Every party does it so please stop with the holier than thou stamping of the feet when an opposition party does it. It appears the Libs do this as frequently as anyone, just a little more clumsily it seems.

Glad to see you've noticed, they all do it; so no pretending Harpo's the only one without clay feet, OK?

 

[train]

Glad to see you've noticed, they all do it; so no pretending Harpo's the only one without clay feet, OK?

So you do realize your bias last year when you were whining about Harpo and that Ontario riding. Good for you you are progressing.

 

[train]

Cordere has an ego just slightly larger than the province, he has a record of sticking the family cutlery into people backs starting with Paul MArtin and he has not slowed down.

Well if Codere did Martin that would make him a Chretien-ite. I always thought Couchon was also Johnny Crouton's buddy. Confusing. Iggy is proving to be if not a subtle knife-man , then one who is not afraid to gut someone decisively.

Whether or not the old operators come out of the weeds depends on whether they think Ignatief has legs, and from what I have seen so far he is heading for the glue factory.

Well, I don't see a likely successor around. You have a choice of a hockey player, a nanny abuser and little Bobby. All the decent ones have been driven out. Bring back Tobin or Manley

 

[slowpoke]

Lots of stories in the newspapers about the internal discontent in the Quebec arm of the Federal Liberal party.

When Dion was leader he tried to oust the old Quebec Liberal mafia and it blew up in his face when longtime Chretien bagman and MP Couchon retired in Outremont and Dion's handpicked candidate was defeated in a bye-election.

Iggy picked a new Quebec Lieutenant in Cordere who then picked a well known businesswoman to run in the next election in Outremont. The only problem was Couchon decided he wanted to run again in his old riding. Cordere didn't want Couchon back and told him to get lost. Iggy publically supported Cordere.

Couchon started to call in his old favours and this weekend in a stunning about face Iggy announces Couchon will be the candidate. Cordere is shocked and resigns. His parting comment will ensure the Liberals have an uphill battle in Quebec when he blames it on Iggy listening to his Toronto advisors instead of French Canadians.

Wow. Iggy makes Dion seem politically astute. Who is actually running the party and how did they force a 180 turn in 2 weeks?


As an aside can we please have an end to the whining by the brainwashed Libs when other parties handpick candidates and force them on locsl riding associations. Every party does it so please stop with the holier than thou stamping of the feet when an opposition party does it. It appears the Libs do this as frequently as anyone, just a little more clumsily it seems.

Apparently there were plenty of Liberals in ON and QC who were opposed to Corderre "appointing" Nathalie Le Prohon and thus preventing Couchon from returning to his old riding. Couchon has a fair amount of cred in QC so Iggy overruled Corderre and allowed Couchon (and others) to contest Outremont. People seem to forget that this riding will now be contested just like any other. This is better than having another star candidate being parachuted in as Corderre intended. The situation also changed midstream when Le Prohon (reportedly) told Iggy she wouldn't mind running in a different riding in order to prevent a rift. So Iggy was reacting to changing circumstances and probably made the right choice. Corderre has been an effective organizer and recruiter in QC but he's not perfect and he's not the only Liberal with a vision for that province. Overall, we are probably better off with these 2 new candidates in spite of Corderre's little tantrum.

I don't have as much of a problem with someone like Iggy changing his mind as I do with leaders who make obviously bad choices and then refuse to change course because they'll appear indecisive. Nobody gets it right every time yet the press pounces on politicians who deviate even slightly from decisions they've made earlier. Sober second thought and flexibility is in very short supply in poliitics and so Iggy probably made the best of an awkward situation. I also think Iggy looks more in charge now that Corderre has demoted himself.

 

[train]

Apparently there were plenty of Liberals in ON and QC who were opposed to Corderre "appointing" Nathalie Le Prohon and thus preventing Couchon from returning to his old riding. Couchon has a fair amount of cred in QC so Iggy overruled Corderre and allowed Couchon (and others) to contest Outremont. People seem to forget that this riding will now be contested just like any other.

You really aren't this naive are you. This is a party that doesn't even elect their leader anymore and you actually think there is going to be a decision made within the riding association as to who their candidate will be ? Wow I don't think there is a single other person in Canada that believes that.

The situation also changed midstream when Le Prohon (reportedly) told Iggy she wouldn't mind running in a different riding in order to prevent a rift.

Yes so she will be parachuted into yet another riding. Now you have 2, not just 1, ridings where the candidates will be dictated to the local riding associations. This is an improvement how ? This was all after Couchon started the palace revolt in the not so happy feifdom of Quebec.

 

[oldjones]

Watch it train, your anti-Liberal knee's beginning to jerk, and the "ho-hum it's all politics pose is slipping".

Now tell us all: Is this a deplorable sort of conduct for any and all parties and their leaders? Or only the ones you're biassed against?

 

[train]

Watch it train, your anti-Liberal knee's beginning to jerk, and the "ho-hum it's all politics pose is slipping".

Now tell us all: Is this a deplorable sort of conduct for any and all parties and their leaders? Or only the ones you're biassed against?

Hey I'm just having some childish fun giving it back to you and poke who went on a self-righteous rampage last year when the Consevatives parachuted a candadate into some Toronto riding. Nice to see it get thrown back in your face .

Personnally I think so called "star" candidates are necessary if any party wants to end up with credible people capable of filling cabinet positions. You simply cannot leave it to chance within the local riding associations. I'd much rather have Le Prohon as a MP than some tired old political hack such as Couchon. She has an impressive resume, better than half the current MP's and nearly all the current Quebec MP's.

Beyond that the only thing of interest is that Quebec is still a mess behind the scenes for the Liberals and they are selfdestructing. Iggy has had a poor enough start as it is that he doesn't need to screw this up as well.

 

[landscaper]

Well if Codere did Martin that would make him a Chretien-ite. I always thought Couchon was also Johnny Crouton's buddy. Confusing. Iggy is proving to be if not a subtle knife-man , then one who is not afraid to gut someone decisively.



Well, I don't see a likely successor around. You have a choice of a hockey player, a nanny abuser and little Bobby. All the decent ones have been driven out. Bring back Tobin or Manley

Codere is on nobodyies team but Codere, everybody else is just a stepping stone on his way to his rightfull position. Just what that is depends on who he really pisses off, I would not be surprised to see him in Provincial politics soon.

Don't forget Bob Rea he had a hand in this latest fiasco, he was mnaking calls during this who mess, he is still pissed they gave the crown and scepter to Ignatief .

 

[slowpoke]

You really aren't this naive are you. This is a party that doesn't even elect their leader anymore and you actually think there is going to be a decision made within the riding association as to who their candidate will be ? Wow I don't think there is a single other person in Canada that believes that.

I believe what I read in the newspaper and what I can deduce from the available facts. This article just about sums it up.

http://news.globaltv.com/world/story.html?id=2047756
---------------------------------------------------------------
..."Coderre wanted Ignatieff to forego an open nomination meeting and simply appoint Nathalie Le Prohon, whom Coderre believed was a star female candidate. Ignatieff initially acceded to Coderre's request but when former Liberal justice minister Martin Cauchon emerged to say he wanted to run in Outremont, Ignatieff reversed course, calling for an open nomination meeting in Outremont and appointing Le Prohon as the candidate in another Montreal riding."...
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The Outremont riding association was in favour of Cauchon and they sent a letter to Iggy voicing their objection to a star candidate being appointed. So the riding is officially open to other candidates but Cauchon will presumeably be nominated. From what I can see, he'll be nominated because he's the one the Liberals in Outremont want to represent them. If you're suggesting the riding association is under the sway of powerful but hidden (Liberal) forces and that the riding assoc. is being forced to support Cauchon, I'd be happy to hear about it in detail. In the meantime, I'll stick to the more straightforward version.

Yes so she will be parachuted into yet another riding. Now you have 2, not just 1, ridings where the candidates will be dictated to the local riding associations. This is an improvement how ? This was all after Couchon started the palace revolt in the not so happy feifdom of Quebec.

I'm not disputing that Le Prohon was appointed. But we are net winners since we now have 2 strong new candidates in potentially winnable ridings. We'd have only 1 candidate (Le Prohon) in Outremont if Corderre had his way. Cauchon refused to take the substitute riding so he'd be long gone.

We also have Iggy showing that he will override members of his team when and if he thinks they are wrong. Corderre put Iggy in a tough spot so Iggy had to choose. If he'd backed down and let Corderre have his way, he would have appeared weak. The press can spin this any way they want but there is no escaping the fact that Iggy retained the final authority in Quebec. It is one thing for Corderre to disagree in private but this was more like a public ultimatum which didn't leave Iggy much choice. At least he made the right one.

 

[Aardvark154]

Beyond that the only thing of interest is that Quebec is still a mess behind the scenes for the Liberals and they are selfdestructing.

From your lips to God's ear!
Just so long as it isn't the Bloc that benefits.

 

[train]

I'm not disputing that Le Prohon was appointed. But we are net winners since we now have 2 strong new candidates in potentially winnable ridings. We'd have only 1 candidate (Le Prohon) in Outremont if Corderre had his way. Cauchon refused to take the substitute riding so he'd be long gone.

.

So can I assume that, unlike last year, you now approve of leaders dictating candidates to local riding associations ? I always have.

 

[train]

From your lips to God's ear!
Just so long as it isn't the Bloc that benefits.

The Conservatives are unlikely to benefit so that only leaves the Bloc. Quebec is not stupid enough to vote NDP in any great number.

 

[slowpoke]

So can I assume that, unlike last year, you now approve of leaders dictating candidate to local riding associations ? I always have.

Your memory is playing tricks on you again. My only comments concerning riding associations and their choice of candidates were aimed at Harper's REMOVAL of Mark Warner during the by-election in Toronto Central. I know Warner was going to get creamed by Bob Rae anyway but Harper handled it badly. Warner looked like an OK guy and I think the CPOC could have used him in another riding. But Harper was too worried about controlling everything so he dumped Warner for attending an AIDS conference and a few relatively minor transgressions.
http://www.thestar.com/News/Canada/article/272579

I've never objected to star candidates so I think you have me confused with someone else. Appointing star candidates can ruffle a lot of local feathers so it is often better if the riding association picks a star candidate on their own. It is especially embarrassing when you appoint a star candidate who fumbles the ball and you lose the seat. Parachutes are dangerous. Other than that, I have no real objections so I don't know what you're talking about.

 

[WoodPeckr]

Could this prelude to a comeback by Jean Chrétien?....



The problems we face today will not be solved by the minds that created them

 

[train]

Your memory is playing tricks on you again. My only comments concerning riding associations and their choice of candidates were aimed at Harper's REMOVAL of Mark Warner during the by-election in Toronto Central. .

Exactly what I was remembering, a leader dictating candidates. The fact that you are trying to make it sound fundementally different is beyond comical.

 

[train]

Could this prelude to a comeback by Jean Chrétien?....



The problems we face today will not be solved by the minds that created them

Didn't you just answer your own question ? The Quebec Liberal party fracturing actually started with Chretien.

 

[slowpoke]

Exactly what I was remembering, a leader dictating candidates. The fact that you are trying to make it sound fundementally different is beyond comical.

Actually not. Warner was a throwaway candidate and the whole debate was about how much control the leader should have over a nominated candidate's BEHAVIOUR. It wasn't about whether a leader should ever dump or appoint a candidate. I've never had a problem with that. The whole Warner thing was about Harper being uncomfortable with a savy guy who did very little wrong. I clearly remember focussing on Warner's credentials and overall quality. The debate was really about Harper's tight-assed personality and WHY he couldn't tolerate Warner's behaviour.

The situation in Outremont is all about Iggy overriding his own Quebec lieutenant and whether they SHOULD appoint the star candidate or let the riding decide. If you really see these two events as mirror images of each other, I think you need a nice long sabbatical.

 

[oldjones]

Hey I'm just having some childish fun giving it back to you and poke who went on a self-righteous rampage last year when the Consevatives parachuted a candadate into some Toronto riding. Nice to see it get thrown back in your face .

…edit…

Well isn't it nice you're having fun. "Rampage" is rather overstating the case, though, don't you think?

I think that case differed in that a Con candidate democratically chosen by the riding association was replaced by fiat of the party leader, a leader who claims to carry the standard of populist reform democracy—recall of members and all that good Preston Manning stuff.

In Outremont the riding association has yet to choose anyone, and what's been going on is one party faction contesting the favourite of another with the leader trying to make the best of it.

Whether one approves of the 'leader's choice/star candidate tradition' or not, (and I do not) Iggy—unlike Harpo— doesn't have the baggage either of overturning a democratic choice, or of proceeding without regard for previous self-righteous pronouncements that he stood for popular choice.