One would think in a county of highly educated 250M+ people surely there is some one of superior intelligence with dedication to public service would want to run for the oval office and be elected as an American president! Yet they pick a privileged religious hee-hi type cowboy as their president, not once but twice, can some one explains to me what is going on here? Is this what the real democracy mean, to be able to elect a clown or an idiot if you want to? Now I don’t mean to start another bush bashing but to examine the reason(s) why America has gone from electing great presidents like Thomas Jefferson or Abraham Lincoln, to likes of George W. Bush in such a short time!
Is American democracy hijacked?
- Thread starter cyrus
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yychobbyist
Because the politics of the day weeds out men like Jefferson. Today, we require our politicians to be milquetoasty media-savvy drones. These days, people of conviction, ideas and foresight do things other than poltics. Lewis Lapham (OTB, calm down ok, don't let that heart rate get too high) the editor of Harpers says, and I tend to agree with him, that only members of the American oligarchy are even allowed to run for office these days - if you're in the club you get support, money, airtime etc. If you're outside the club you don't. Plain and simple.
Has democracy been hijacked? No. There are elections, there are choices. It is what it is. Could the system be improved? Absolutely. Could better people run? Absolutely. The question really is, why don't they?
Has democracy been hijacked? No. There are elections, there are choices. It is what it is. Could the system be improved? Absolutely. Could better people run? Absolutely. The question really is, why don't they?
Media. 40 years of adults watching the Flintstones, Jetsons, Muppets, Smerfs, and the Simpsons in prime time dumbed down the population. That and a 25% illiteracy rate made the difference. The average adult watches 27 hours per week of Television, mostly junk. The average university graduate can't even spell with out spell checker. Bush is a genuis to many. If you think its bad now, wait 25 more years. The primary school kids of today don't read books plus a huge number are Obese. BTW, there is no difference between Canada and the US in this regard.cyrus said:One would think in a county of highly educated 250M+ people surely there is some one of superior intelligence with dedication to public service would want to run for the oval office and be elected as an American president! Yet they pick a privileged religious hee-hi type cowboy as their president, not once but twice, can some one explains to me what is going on here? Is this what the real democracy mean, to be able to elect a clown or an idiot if you want to? Now I don’t mean to start another bush bashing but to examine the reason(s) why America has gone from electing great presidents like Thomas Jefferson or Abraham Lincoln, to likes of George W. Bush in such a short time!
What did the bush campaign cost? 140 million? The Corporations decide the candidates. The media to a large extent controls how the population perceives them. Where was all the debate over the box on Bush's back in the first debate? The silence was deafening. It would have killed himyychobbyist said:Has democracy been hijacked? No. There are elections, there are choices. It is what it is. Could the system be improved? Absolutely. Could better people run? Absolutely. The question really is, why don't they?
Y
yychobbyist
That's part of it. We are a dumbed down society and that's why men of vision don't go into politics.Mcluhan said:What did the bush campaign cost? 140 million? The Corporations decide the candidates. The media to a large extent controls how the population perceives them. Where was all the debate over the box on Bush's back in the first debate? The silence was deafening. It would have killed him
And on a basic level, many people no longer feel comfortable or trust a candidate that seems too smart. The voters of the electronic media age don't want someone to give them complicated answers to problems or seem to talk down to them. They increasingly want easily digestable bites that reassure them. Clinton only got away with it because he had perfected his "Bubba" rountine as a means to downplay his intellect.yychobbyist said:That's part of it. We are a dumbed down society and that's why men of vision don't go into politics.
Sore losers!
Democracy means that sometimes you get the candidate that didn't vote for. You have to live with majority's choice.
I doesn't show very much class to insult the majority that voted for the winner or to make unsupported claims that somehow the vote was rigged.
I guess it's easier to accept the majority is stupid or that something dishonest happened in the election rather than the fact that you supported the worser candidate in the eyes of the majority.
Democracy means that sometimes you get the candidate that didn't vote for. You have to live with majority's choice.
I doesn't show very much class to insult the majority that voted for the winner or to make unsupported claims that somehow the vote was rigged.
I guess it's easier to accept the majority is stupid or that something dishonest happened in the election rather than the fact that you supported the worser candidate in the eyes of the majority.
Cinema Face,
I for one was not talking just about this election, but a growing trend in elections for president. Reagan, though no genius, was a master at connecting with voters on a basic level, and was I think a fair bit smarter than he let on. The US will go for a "regular guy" over someone who comes off too smart almost everytime.
I for one was not talking just about this election, but a growing trend in elections for president. Reagan, though no genius, was a master at connecting with voters on a basic level, and was I think a fair bit smarter than he let on. The US will go for a "regular guy" over someone who comes off too smart almost everytime.
yep. agree with that. Bush scored on an emotional level. Kerry's wife was also a huge negative. They realised that early, brought out the hook, and pushed the daughter in her place. But the damage was already done. Kerry didn't connect with the crowd on the same emotional frequency as Bush.Asterix said:And on a basic level, many people no longer feel comfortable or trust a candidate that seems too smart. The voters of the electronic media age don't want someone to give them complicated answers to problems or seem to talk down to them. They increasingly want easily digestable bites that reassure them. Clinton only got away with it because he had perfected his "Bubba" rountine as a means to downplay his intellect.
while we are on this topic...anybody watch CNN coverage tonight? The tape of Kennedy's inaugural address is facinating to watch, in comparison. Media has reshaped politics into something a universe away from 40 years ago.
Nobody would give a speech like that today, it just wouldn't play the same. It's occurred to me more than once, that our election process is so media driven that the man who was arguably the greatest president, Lincoln, would have a hard time getting himself elected a small town mayor today.Mcluhan said:while we are on this topic...anybody watch CNN coverage tonight? The tape of Kennedy's inaugural address is facinating to watch, in comparison. Media has reshaped politics into something a universe away from 40 years ago.
I'll have to take your opinion on Lincoln, because I never studied him that closely honestly, but I feel a great sence of gratitude for my actual existance today. I feel had a lessor man been in power, we would have perished in a nuclear winter. Referring to Bay of Pigs here. Are you old enough to remember the day he died?Asterix said:Nobody would give a speech like that today, it just wouldn't play the same. It's occurred to me more than once, that our election process is so media driven that the man who was arguably the greatest president, Lincoln, would have a hard time getting himself elected a small town mayor today.
My opinion on Lincoln is based on that his poor background, rough character, blunt honesty and physical appearance would have made him almost unelectable to high office today. As far as Kennedy, I remember very distinctly the day he died, and even as a little kid knew the country had just gone through something horribly transcendent. My point is that we longer require greatness, or even the perception of greatness, in our leaders.Mcluhan said:I'll have to take your opinion on Lincoln, because I never studied him that closely honestly, but I feel a great sence of gratitude for my actual existance today. I feel had a lessor man been in power, we would have perished in a nuclear winter. Referring to Bay of Pigs here. Are you old enough to remember the day he died?
Well, my grandmother, born in Lincoln’s day, used to cut a small pig and cure it in a pork barrel with salt peter stashed in the root cellar, and use it up all summer without refrigeration. Those days are gone too (along with her). Things have certainly changed. If Lincoln where alive today, he would be a different man. A product of his environment.Asterix said:My opinion on Lincoln is based on that his poor background, rough character, blunt honesty and physical appearance would have made him almost unelectable to high office today. As far as Kennedy, I remember very distinctly the day he died, and even as a little kid knew the country had just gone through something horribly transcendent. My point is that we longer require greatness, or even the perception of greatness, in our leaders.
It happened, I was collecting on my Toronto Telegram newspaper route the day Kennedy was shot. You probably remember, as I do, being let out of school early that day. Those days, most of the women where housewives, and so they where all home when I knocked on the door. I had about 40 on my route. What sticks out in my mind the most is the weeping and the tears. Flooding tears. There was also a look of fear combined with disbelief. They all knew what was at stake. The same reaction was occuring in Germany, and all over the Western world. Different times of course.
I think today, if for example Bush was assassinated, the country would be over it in a month…like the Tsunami. We have all changed, and in many ways not for the better.
When I watch that Compelling movie Seven Days In May (1964), it’s about as close as I can get to really feeling and remembering how it was in the early sixties at the height of the cold war.
Maybe we should not be so hard on Bush after all. Maybe Bush is a merely reflection on what we have become. A sound byte mentality.
In a later post, you mention that your Grandmother was alive during lincoln's time. Considering he was born in 1809, I'm wondering how long it's been since you were in an elementary school classroom, or associated with University students. These statements are asanine and out of touch with reality. You celebrate Lincoln and Kennedy and at the same time bring up literacy and SPELLING of all things. Americans during Lincoln's time were slaves and farmers, school wasn't regulated and many things took priority over education. And what's worse, a college student using spell check or a houswife from the Kennedy era not even having the option of going to college. The "dumbed down" theory is tired.Mcluhan said:Media. 40 years of adults watching the Flintstones, Jetsons, Muppets, Smerfs, and the Simpsons in prime time dumbed down the population. That and a 25% illiteracy rate made the difference. The average adult watches 27 hours per week of Television, mostly junk. The average university graduate can't even spell with out spell checker. Bush is a genuis to many. If you think its bad now, wait 25 more years. The primary school kids of today don't read books plus a huge number are Obese. BTW, there is no difference between Canada and the US in this regard.
Miss
Like getting stung by a bee...
In a later post, you mention that your Grandmother was alive during lincoln's time. Considering he was born in 1809, I'm wondering how long it's been since you were in an elementary school classroom, or associated with University students.
I was in elementary school when Kennedy was shot and my grandmother who lived to almost 100, was born shortly after Lincoln’s assassination... lol..<sigh> why I am explaining this is beyond me. But you asked.
These statements are asanine and out of touch with reality.
If you say so! I certainly wouldn't bother to argue my reality with yours.
You celebrate Lincoln and Kennedy and at the same time bring up literacy and SPELLING of all things. Americans during Lincoln's time were slaves and farmers, school wasn't regulated and many things took priority over education.
Yes, I think that was more or less my point.
And what's worse, a college student using spell check or a houswife from the Kennedy era not even having the option of going to college.
Actually my mother went to college in the 20’s…lol Again, what that has to do with women of the sixty’s being mothers and staying at home. A lot of them went to college also. I was mentioning that simply because I actually had contact with 40 people that day who were all at home watching the event unfold on the tube, and in tears about the assassination of the US president. Nothing more. So if you want to convert that to a sexist flame war, be my guest. You seem to need to rant.
Save me the "dumbed down" rhetoric, it's tired.
Well, I’ve hired enough college grads from the recent generation to know how well they spell. It’s not that big of a thing, but it’s a trend in education indicative of other skill sets, like reading, comprehension, etc. all more or less related to more TV watching and less socializing. And since TV is a cool media,...oh never mind lol
Yes, you’re right, ‘dumbed down’ is a worn cliché. I’ll be more mindful of that in future. Thanks for taking the time to point that out! It must have been painful for you. Sorry about your angst!
Speaking of pickles, you’ve certainly got one up your butt.Lil'Miss said:In a later post, you mention that your Grandmother was alive during lincoln's time. Considering he was born in 1809, I'm wondering how long it's been since you were in an elementary school classroom, or associated with University students. These statements are asanine and out of touch with reality. You celebrate Lincoln and Kennedy and at the same time bring up literacy and SPELLING of all things. Americans during Lincoln's time were slaves and farmers, school wasn't regulated and many things took priority over education. And what's worse, a college student using spell check or a houswife from the Kennedy era not even having the option of going to college. The "dumbed down" theory is tired.
Miss
In a later post, you mention that your Grandmother was alive during lincoln's time. Considering he was born in 1809, I'm wondering how long it's been since you were in an elementary school classroom, or associated with University students.
I was in elementary school when Kennedy was shot and my grandmother who lived to almost 100, was born shortly after Lincoln’s assassination... lol..<sigh> why I am explaining this is beyond me. But you asked.
These statements are asanine and out of touch with reality.
If you say so! I certainly wouldn't bother to argue my reality with yours.
You celebrate Lincoln and Kennedy and at the same time bring up literacy and SPELLING of all things. Americans during Lincoln's time were slaves and farmers, school wasn't regulated and many things took priority over education.
Yes, I think that was more or less my point.
And what's worse, a college student using spell check or a houswife from the Kennedy era not even having the option of going to college.
Actually my mother went to college in the 20’s…lol Again, what that has to do with women of the sixty’s being mothers and staying at home. A lot of them went to college also. I was mentioning that simply because I actually had contact with 40 people that day who were all at home watching the event unfold on the tube, and in tears about the assassination of the US president. Nothing more. So if you want to convert that to a sexist flame war, be my guest. You seem to need to rant.
Save me the "dumbed down" rhetoric, it's tired.
Well, I’ve hired enough college grads from the recent generation to know how well they spell. It’s not that big of a thing, but it’s a trend in education indicative of other skill sets, like reading, comprehension, etc. all more or less related to more TV watching and less socializing. And since TV is a cool media,...oh never mind lol
Yes, you’re right, ‘dumbed down’ is a worn cliché. I’ll be more mindful of that in future. Thanks for taking the time to point that out! It must have been painful for you. Sorry about your angst!
There is a good reason I used the word hijack in the title. I believe the American people no longer have given the choice to actively participate and control the democratic process so they cherish with their lives!
Thus all they can do now is to select the lesser of the two evils whom by the way are practically appointed by the top elites though the corrupted existing two party system!
Over time, they have also made it so expensive that a real public servant without the means can not afford to participate in the process without their prior approval or financial support.
Most of these elites get into the politics not to server but to support a higher agenda that is in their own or their friend’s corporate interests. They also have taken the ownership of the media in a manner that they could almost, all the time, control the flow of information in their favor, within the free press. So the question is if we believe these are some of the problems, what could we do about it! I would think, suspend the two political party system, then give equal media access to all candidates at all level of goverments on PBS TV and finally bring back accountability to the system.
So when an old lady calls in on the Larry King show and ask her State Senator why the hell these people hate us so much, she could actually hear the true like “because they have problem with our aggressive foreign policies meddling in their daily lives” and not some propaganda like "because they hate freedom!"
Oh please do you really think any one in the whole world hates freedom! How could an American politician with any creditability say such a lie on the air and get away with it?
Why don't media people follow up on these lies and people demand the true from them?
Thus all they can do now is to select the lesser of the two evils whom by the way are practically appointed by the top elites though the corrupted existing two party system!
Over time, they have also made it so expensive that a real public servant without the means can not afford to participate in the process without their prior approval or financial support.
Most of these elites get into the politics not to server but to support a higher agenda that is in their own or their friend’s corporate interests. They also have taken the ownership of the media in a manner that they could almost, all the time, control the flow of information in their favor, within the free press. So the question is if we believe these are some of the problems, what could we do about it! I would think, suspend the two political party system, then give equal media access to all candidates at all level of goverments on PBS TV and finally bring back accountability to the system.
So when an old lady calls in on the Larry King show and ask her State Senator why the hell these people hate us so much, she could actually hear the true like “because they have problem with our aggressive foreign policies meddling in their daily lives” and not some propaganda like "because they hate freedom!"
Oh please do you really think any one in the whole world hates freedom! How could an American politician with any creditability say such a lie on the air and get away with it?
Why don't media people follow up on these lies and people demand the true from them?
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Wrong..wrong and wrong again
The lack of knowledge on how the US system works is astonishing.
The POTUS is only one piece of the puzzle. He is not a king and in may ways doesn't even have same powers as your owm prime minister.
The power to make and pass laws lies solely within the congress or the senate. The Potus is like an CEO, he can have a vision he can have a plan, but if congress and the senate don't play along, he is reduced to a figure head.
His actual power is very limited. Executive orders, Veto and the right to declar war(even here he needs to get the approval of the congress within 30 days), there might be a few others I missed here.
If you need proof I suggest you watch the next few years. Many of his current agenda points are dead on arrival, due to lack of support, within his own party.
If he doesn't play his cards right, or overplays his hand, he will be a dead duck for the next four years.
The POTUS in general get's way to much credit or blame, for what happens within the country.
Real politics and real decision making, happens on a much lower level.
The lack of knowledge on how the US system works is astonishing.
The POTUS is only one piece of the puzzle. He is not a king and in may ways doesn't even have same powers as your owm prime minister.
The power to make and pass laws lies solely within the congress or the senate. The Potus is like an CEO, he can have a vision he can have a plan, but if congress and the senate don't play along, he is reduced to a figure head.
His actual power is very limited. Executive orders, Veto and the right to declar war(even here he needs to get the approval of the congress within 30 days), there might be a few others I missed here.
If you need proof I suggest you watch the next few years. Many of his current agenda points are dead on arrival, due to lack of support, within his own party.
If he doesn't play his cards right, or overplays his hand, he will be a dead duck for the next four years.
The POTUS in general get's way to much credit or blame, for what happens within the country.
Real politics and real decision making, happens on a much lower level.
Hmmm . . . we are talking about the election process, the quality of current politicians and in general leaving out two thirds of population out in the cold, mind you that was not the case up to recent years!langeweile said:The lack of knowledge on how the US system works is astonishing.The POTUS is only one piece of the puzzle....
Real politics and real decision making, happens on a much lower level.
My point is.People outside of the US are so obsessed with GWB, and simply forget, that his powers are very limited.cyrus said:Hmmm . . . we are talking about the election process, the quality of current politicians and in general leaving out two thirds of population out in the cold, mind you that was not the case up to recent years!
He is on for 8 years max and than dissapears. By a large margin it is irrelevant who the Potus is.
He is a figure head and in the big scheme of things plays a secondary role.
