International Court of Justice Ruling on Wall

onthebottom

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An interesting article from (you guessed it) the Economist on the "Security Wall" the Israelis are building and the ICJ ruling:

OTB

Israel’s illegal but unstoppable barrier
Jul 12th 2004
From The Economist Global Agenda


The International Court of Justice has ruled that the barrier Israel is building in the West Bank is illegal and has demanded reparations for Palestinians affected by it. There will now be pressure for sanctions to make Israel stop building the barrier but its construction is likely to continue

TO MOST Israelis, the 630km (390-mile) barrier their government is constructing in the West Bank, consisting of concrete walls, barbed-wire fences, trenches and patrol roads, is a legitimate defence against Palestinian suicide-bombers. The Israeli government insists that the barrier—of which 185km is already completed—is only a temporary security measure and has no political significance. To Palestinians, who see the barrier carving out chunks of their farmland and cutting off their villages, it looks like a land grab, designed to stop them ever having a viable Palestinian state by slicing their territory into shrinking and tenuously connected enclaves. Some estimates put the barrier’s eventual cost at $1 billion, adding to Palestinians’ scepticism of Israeli claims that it is not intended to stay up forever.
Last December, the United Nations General Assembly voted to ask the UN’s International Court of Justice (ICJ) to rule on the legality of the barrier. On Friday July 9th, the court published its ruling, declaring the barrier illegal under international law, demanding the dismantlement of those parts that already encroach on the West Bank and calling for compensation for the many Palestinians whose rights have been “gravely” infringed by it.
While recognising Israel’s right to defend itself, the ICJ said it was not convinced that the route chosen for the barrier was justified. It called on the UN to consider taking further action. Palestinian leaders are calling for sanctions against Israel, though America and other veto-wielding members of the UN Security Council will probably reject this. Israel has already said it will not accept the ICJ’s findings—which are non-binding—arguing that the stalled Middle East peace process will not be helped by taking it piecemeal to the courts.
When first proposed, the barrier met with much resistance from Israelis themselves. Left-wingers said such high-handed action would ruin the chances of a negotiated peace. Many right-wingers, including Ariel Sharon, the prime minister, initially opposed the barrier, since it was originally intended to run close to Israel’s border before it captured the West Bank, along with Gaza and other territories, in a 1967 war—and would thus exclude many Jewish settlements built since then. However, the plans have since been modified to take in several large settlements. More importantly, suicide attacks by Palestinian militants in the past year have convinced many Israelis that the barrier is needed.
The government notes that such attacks have dropped sharply as its construction has progressed—though this is also due to Israel’s equally controversial policy of assassinating senior militants. A recent poll found that 78% of Israelis now support building the barrier. On Sunday, a bomb at a bus stop in Tel Aviv—the first terrorist bombing in Israel since March—killed an Israeli soldier. Afterwards, Mr Sharon suggested that the ICJ ruling had encouraged the bombers. He insisted that construction of the barrier would continue.
The barrier has undoubtedly added to the hardship that Palestinians suffer from Israeli security measures. Many have been cut off from workplaces, land, schools, hospitals, holy sites and relatives. Thousands, whose villages have been encompassed by the barrier, are stuck in a no-man’s-land, unable to travel west into Israel proper nor east into the West Bank. In some Palestinian towns, young people have been forced by lack of work to leave—encouraging suspicions that this was exactly Israel’s intention. Israelis retort that Palestinians, who have been conducting a violent intifada (uprising) against the occupation since 2000, have only themselves to blame.

cont.....
 

onthebottom

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Cont....


Another awkward ruling
The ICJ’s judgment follows a ruling by Israel’s own High Court, on June 30th, that three-quarters of a 40km stretch of the barrier, to the north-west of Jerusalem (see map), must be rerouted because of its “severe” effects on the 35,000-odd Palestinians living in its path. Mr Sharon said he would abide by this ruling, largely because the court also upheld his argument that the barrier’s main and legitimate purpose is for security.
Nevertheless, Palestinians hope the Israeli court’s decision will set a precedent. Last month Israel began to build a barrier around Ariel, a large Jewish settlement 20km inside the West Bank, which will eventually be linked up to the rest. The government says that the High Court’s decision is unlikely to affect the route around Ariel and three other nearby settlements because they are “home to 50,000 Israelis and just one Palestinian family”. Palestinians argue that some 11,000 of their number have already had land requisitioned to make room for the Ariel barrier. Another, bigger test will be East Jerusalem, the Arab-populated part of the ancient city that has been occupied by Israel since 1967. If the barrier follows the defence ministry’s latest maps, it will seriously constrain the lives of some 200,000 Palestinians.
Many governments worldwide agree with the ICJ that the barrier is illegal. Most countries also regard Israel’s presence in the West Bank and Gaza as “occupation” and thus the Jewish settlements there as illegal—even America’s State Department has long held this view. Israel counters that the territories are not occupied but “disputed”. Many Israelis regard “Judea and Samaria”, as they call the West Bank, as part of the Promised Land that God gave the Jews.
Theological debate aside, Mr Sharon will try to ignore the rulings of both the ICJ and the Israeli court, and push on with building the barrier, while simultaneously pursuing his plan for unilateral “disengagement” from the Palestinians. The first step of this is to withdraw Israeli security forces and settlers from Gaza and a small part of the northern West Bank. Hardliners in Mr Sharon’s Likud party and in extreme right-wing parties in his ruling coalition are fiercely opposed, regarding any withdrawal as rewarding Palestinian terrorism.
Though he has survived several confidence votes in the Knesset, Mr Sharon is struggling to stay in government. On Monday, he met Shimon Peres, the leader of the main opposition Labour Party, to discuss forming a national-unity government. There was no immediate decision, though the two veteran leaders agreed to co-operate to push through the Gaza pull-out plan. Meanwhile the violence in Gaza continued: a 70-year-old Palestinian man was crushed to death on Monday, as Israeli bulldozers demolished buildings suspected of harbouring militants.
Palestinians’ hopes of gaining the moral high ground as a result of the two court rulings are undermined by the criticisms of the Palestinian leader, Yasser Arafat, made recently by the world powers mediating the peace process. They have become exasperated at Mr Arafat’s steadfast refusal to allow the Palestinian Authority’s various, rival security forces to be merged and reformed. Their continued failure to rein in militant groups only strengthens Israel's case for continuing to wave aside world opinion, pressing on with building the barrier and “disengaging” in the manner it sees fit.

OTB
 

happygrump

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...which reminds me of a story...

A documentary film-maker was taking some stock shots of the Wailing Wall in Jerusalem when he noticed a particular man praying. The man came back the next day, the next day, and the next day. Finally the film-maker spoke with the man.
"Excuse me, sir, but I noticed you've been here every day for almost a week."
"Why, that's right, son. As a matter of fact I've been here ever day for nearly 40 years."
"Forty years? What do you pray at the Wall for every day for forty years?"
"I pray for peace between Israelis and Palestinians. I pray for justice and understanding. I pray for a peaceful positive future for my children and grandchildren."
"And how does it feel to come here everyday?"
"It feels like I'm talking to a fuckin' wall."
 

tompeepin

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There are rabid extremists on both sides. Ariel Sharon’s life is in possible danger just as was Yitzhak Rabin’s. Extremists cannot be reasoned with, as they are not rational. Israel has every right to build a wall. Except that it must be on the Green line (the "1949 Armistice Line") and it certainly could not be built on disputed territory until any claim was settled, and no that does not mean Israel itself. Therefore the West Bank wall is illegal and (relatively speaking) immoral.
 

loaded

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Israeli official proposes ethnic cleansing

I have attached a news article about the idealogies of the likud when it comes to the palestinians, thats not to say that the palestinian side does not have groups with equally disturbing ideoligies...

Sunday 04 January 2004,

A member of the Israeli parliament has proposed “massive ethnic cleansing” of non-Jews in Palestine-Israel as a “final solution” of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict.

Uzi Cohen, a member of Ariel Sharon’s right-wing Likud party and a deputy in the Knesset, told Israeli public radio on Sunday there was widespread support in Israel for “the idea of ethnic cleansing”.

“Many people support the idea but few are willing to speak about it publicly.”

Cohen, an influential figure in Likud, proposed that Israel, the United States, the European Union as well as oil-rich Arab states make concerted efforts to create a Palestinian state in northern Jordan.

He suggested the Hashimi royal family in Amman “might view favorably this idea”.

Cohen, who is also deputy mayor of the town of Raanana, said Palestinians should be given 20 years to “leave voluntarily”.

“In case they don’t leave, plans would have to be drawn up to expel them by force.”

'Israel's ugly face'

Cohen’s racist ideas have drawn strong reactions from Palestinian leaders in Israel. Israeli Arab Knesset member Ahmad Taibi described Cohen as representing “Israel’s ugly face”.
MPs of Ariel Sharon's Likud party
discussed expelling Arabs before

“This man espouses Jewish fascism and he is trying to foster his venomous ideas, and I must say he is achieving remarkable success,” Taibi told Aljazeera.net.

“The idea of ethnic cleansing is no longer confined to the far-right parties in Israel; many in the Likud support ethnic cleansing.”

Taibi said tabling a racist proposal for discussion is in itself a grave development.

“It is not important what the result will be. The important thing is that they are going to dignify a fascist proposal like this by discussing it in a formal meeting.”

Demographic threat

Israeli leaders have lately been warning of an “encroaching Palestinian demographic threat”.

On Friday, a leading Jewish demographer warned Jews were on the verge of becoming a minority in mandatory Palestine, the historic region administered by Britain until late 1947 from the River Jordan to the Mediterranean.

Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon has so far been circumspect about the idea of banishing the Palestinians from their ancestral land.

Last year, when members of his Likud party approached him with the idea, Sharon reportedly told them “the international situation wouldn’t be conducive to expelling the Palestinians”.

In 1948, the newly-born Jewish state expelled the bulk of the Palestinian population from what is now Israel and destroyed more than 460 Arab towns and villages.

Israel has consistently refused to allow the repatriation of the refugees, arguing that allowing some or all of them back to their homes, many of which no longer exist, would undermine the “Jewish identity” of Israel.
 
Re: Israeli official proposes ethnic cleansing

loaded said:
I have attached a news article about the idealogies of the likud when it comes to the palestinians, thats not to say that the palestinian side does not have groups with equally disturbing ideoligies...
That's a wishful thinking...unless their IDF conventional, qualitative advantage is mortally blowed by another 73 Yom Kippur War type surprise, caught in the pants attacks.

And there are way too many Arabs and too few Jews.

Unless they are thinking the unthinkable.
 
onthebottom said:
An interesting article from (you guessed it) the Economist on the "Security Wall" the Israelis are building and the ICJ ruling:

OTB
The Economist is famous for the anti-Israel stands.

In reality the ICJ ruling is irrelevant. The ruling is more a statement than a verdict.

It doesn't matter when the Arabs states, on behalf of the Palestinians use this verdict at the UN to force Israel to dismantle the wall.

Who's going to make himself "famous" or "on the crosshairs" by exercising veto to counter the inevitable American veto on any resolution on this issue?

Take your pick, France, Russia or People's Republic of China?

And do I say the same three countries have their own problems on restive Muslims populations?
 

onthebottom

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I wonder when the day will come that there will be more Arabs in Israel than Jews, that should be fun to watch - from very far away.

OTB
 

Cobra1

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tompeepin said:
There are rabid extremists on both sides. Ariel Sharon’s life is in possible danger just as was Yitzhak Rabin’s.

Israel has every right to build a wall. Except that it must be on the Green line (the "1949 Armistice Line") and it certainly could not be built on disputed territory until any claim was settled, and no that does not mean Israel itself. Therefore the West Bank wall is illegal and (relatively speaking) immoral.
Ariel is on borrowed time anyway - he should have been tried for war crimes or assassinated long ago. What is different between him and Rabin, is that this time Netanyahu is not actually going around inciting someone to shoot Sharon - like he did last time. Note also, that no PM has ever been such a powerful proponent and assistance to the settlers than Sharon - so it would be kind of ironic, if one of thier wackos took him out.

I disagree with Paragraph #2 slightly - I would be willing to say Israel has the right to build on the 1967 line rathe rthan 1949. The 1940s land claims could be paid out by a special US grant and dismissed - and some of those up until 1967 also - but they wall and many of the WEst Bank settlements must go back to atleast 1967 - then morally there are no issues with land.
 

Cobra1

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onthebottom said:
I wonder when the day will come that there will be more Arabs in Israel than Jews, that should be fun to watch - from very far away.
OTB
Although people worry about an apartheid state, it would possibly be an economic advantage for ISreal. PReviously they made very good use of cheap labour, and had different levels of social asistance. I noticed that a recent item of clothing from the Gap was made in ISreal. The Knesset doesnt really run the show anyway - and trust me ( this is racist) those Arabs are too stupid to organize themselves - it would be like England and Scotland - pay off the top few leaders and they will deliver the masses.
 

tompeepin

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Cobra1 said:
I disagree with Paragraph #2 slightly - I would be willing to say Israel has the right to build on the 1967 line rathe rthan 1949. The 1940s land claims could be paid out by a special US grant and dismissed - and some of those up until 1967 also - but they wall and many of the WEst Bank settlements must go back to atleast 1967 - then morally there are no issues with land.
I would agree that history would dictate that the spoils of war are to be awarded at the victor's digression. Much of Prussia went to Poland after WWI and WWII. Who would dispute Poland's boarders today? So ok at least 1967 then. It would serve the Egyptian, Jordanians and Syrians (at a high price to the Palestinians) right for attacking in 1967.
 

onthebottom

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tompeepin said:
I would agree that history would dictate that the spoils of war are to be awarded at the victor's digression. Much of Prussia went to Poland after WWI and WWII. Who would dispute Poland's boarders today? So ok at least 1967 then. It would serve the Egyptian, Jordanians and Syrians (at a high price to the Palestinians) right for attacking in 1967.
Does this mean we can repo Japan and half of Germany.

OTB
 

tompeepin

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onthebottom said:
Does this mean we can repo Japan and half of Germany.

OTB
You could have at the time. France certainly did for a while after WWI (Rhineland). But the US does not need anymore land, they just need control. That is why they are still in Japan and Germany under pretences of "protecting" them. They will do the same in Iraq. To the victor go the spoils of war. It is no longer always just land.
 

Perry Mason

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Three stupidities, I don't know which is worse:

- Ariel Sharon's hawkish politics.
- The Arab world's hatred of Israel.
- The United Nations's blatant bias against Israel.

I guess everyone is determined not to give peace a chance!

Perry
 

onthebottom

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tompeepin said:
You could have at the time. France certainly did for a while after WWI (Rhineland). But the US does not need anymore land, they just need control. That is why they are still in Japan and Germany under pretences of "protecting" them. They will do the same in Iraq. To the victor go the spoils of war. It is no longer always just land.
In our case its "to the victor go the bills". We should just clean up Iraq (over the next couple of years) and bring everyone home - fark em all.

OTB
 

onthebottom

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Drunken Master said:
For that matter, all of Asia and a sizeable chunk of Europe should be given back to the Mongolians.
I can live with that, especially the Europe part.

OTB
 

tompeepin

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onthebottom said:
I can live with that, especially the Europe part.

OTB
Yeah and give the good ol' US of A back to the aboriginal peoples who you stole it from. A greater massacre than that of the buffalo was the genocide of the aboriginal peoples in the US, but let's not talk about that. Oh I am sure that you have revisionist history to gloss over that little fact and deny it! Deny a genocide? .... hmmmm who would do that? Nah they are just good ol' boy like David Duke, leave 'em alone.

You can always live with that when it is the other guy, but touch anything close to you and you start screaming like a little baby.
 
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