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I sense an economical collapse on the horizon !

Titalian

No Regrets
Nov 27, 2012
8,500
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0
Everywhere
Reason why I'm bringing this up, is that, earlier this week a large conglomerate came into Canada and shut down
a 40 million+ distribution centre, with many branches and many employees across Canada.. Reason being
(They were not profitable) I work in this industry and its a very important one to all of us.
My question to the business men on this board, do you feel bad times ahead? I certainly do,
and also judging from the fluctuating gas prices, I'm worried ?

Any feed back would be appreciated.
 

kkelso

Well-known member
Apr 27, 2003
2,472
28
48
I would tend to agree with you.

I work almost exclusively with retailers, mostly in the states, a handful in Canada. In the states there is a deep problem brewing, and in retail it is showing up in traffic. Even in very well run businesses the customers just aren't there to convert. Not to be all cliche about it, but it's the middle that's disappearing. Even single brands are seeing a bifurcation within their customer segments. The high is getting higher, the low lower, and the middle evaporating.

When you get down into the demographics it gets even scarier (at least at the companies where I have access to data). It is not a black & white split, or a rich & poor split, or a young and old split. The split between those that pay into the government via taxes, and those that are paid by government via various assistance programs. That gap is growing and will continue to grow, the more you take from one end to fund the other end the less is left for the middle.

I have sold off about 80% of my consumer goods portfolio in the last 12 months. It sucks for me as I'm 5-7 years from retirement. It's going to be a mess.

KK
 

Ceiling Cat

Well-known member
Feb 25, 2009
28,389
1,227
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I do not see a economic collapse coming, what is happening is the consolidation of business and industry. You do not see mom and pop stores like jewelry, camera, dress, hardware, independent pharmacies opening anymore. These businesses are all big box stores now. Any independent store you still see around are left overs that have been passed down in families. The way business is done has changed. It is not so much an economic crisis as it is economic change. those that can adapt will survive.

The next change I see is the over abundance of educated people in the work force. ( if it has not already happened ) soon we will have more educated people in society than we can employ.


Judging from the fluctuating gas prices, I`m worried ?
Oil prices would slide is the world is in economic crisis. There is demand for oil, more of it in other parts of the world. Any geo-political instability will spike oil prices. As I pointed out in a previous thread, if North America can become self sufficient in oil the would would be a much more peaceful and stable place.

https://terb.cc/vbulletin/showthrea...he-road-to-world-stability&highlight=pipeline

When you get down into the demographics it gets even scarier (at least at the companies where I have access to data). It is not a black & white split, or a rich & poor split, or a young and old split. The split between those that pay into the government via taxes, and those that are paid by government via various assistance programs. That gap is growing and will continue to grow, the more you take from one end to fund the other end the less is left for the middle.
Retail is not where you want to be at this time, the trend has been happening for years where retail is in a world of shrinking margins. Where have Eatons` and Simpsons gone? They have been eaten by the stronger retailers. People are getting smarter and buying online or shopping at the brick and mortar stores but comparing before they buy using the internet to help them make the choice.
I will agree with you that the gap between rich and poor are growing. I see that you are doing things to put yourself more towards the richer end than the poor end.

Ownership of retail stocks are not as profitable as they were previously, my strategy is to buy the safest stocks like in pipelines and banking and take advantage of the peaks and dips in price.
 

Insidious Von

My head is my home
Sep 12, 2007
38,761
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You may have a point and one way gauge if a downturn is looming is to at the auto parts industry, they are beginning to slow down.

Most of the fallout will come from the PRC but America has its own set of problems.

The USA's national debt is out of control and it will have a drastic on how it manages its economy. As CC has mentioned there is an over abundance of highly educated people, most of them looking for work in commerce and there just isn't enough work to go around. That's compounded by America's core industries have been outsourced with legal work now being sent to India. In the best possible scenario, any economic recovery will be stunted.

China could be in worse shape. The cost of health care is going nuclear with respiratory disease eating up a large chunk of the money needed. They also face severe fresh water shortages with most of the available supply contaminated. They also have a real estate bubble that been inflating since early 2011 with to many lots sitting empty.

The Arab world also has severe fresh water shortages with Saudi Arabia and Yemen feeling it most acutely. The Arab Spring was triggered by shortages of food and water for subsistence, the next wave could be very bloody. These are dangerous times we live in, especially with Generalissimo Putin striving to fulfill Baffone's (Stalin) legacy.

Please excuse my Italian vernacular, Baffone was the Italian nickname given to Stalin. It means big mustache.
 

HEYHEY

Well-known member
Nov 25, 2005
2,517
593
113
majority of people in this country are maxed out in debt meanwhile the jobs are going down the shitter. what could possibly go wrong? we're all gonna get rich off real estate, didnt you guys hear?
 

nottyboi

Well-known member
May 14, 2008
22,447
1,331
113
I would tend to agree with you.

I work almost exclusively with retailers, mostly in the states, a handful in Canada. In the states there is a deep problem brewing, and in retail it is showing up in traffic. Even in very well run businesses the customers just aren't there to convert. Not to be all cliche about it, but it's the middle that's disappearing. Even single brands are seeing a bifurcation within their customer segments. The high is getting higher, the low lower, and the middle evaporating.

When you get down into the demographics it gets even scarier (at least at the companies where I have access to data). It is not a black & white split, or a rich & poor split, or a young and old split. The split between those that pay into the government via taxes, and those that are paid by government via various assistance programs. That gap is growing and will continue to grow, the more you take from one end to fund the other end the less is left for the middle.

I have sold off about 80% of my consumer goods portfolio in the last 12 months. It sucks for me as I'm 5-7 years from retirement. It's going to be a mess.

KK
Nissan just announced the Micra for under 10K...wow.. trouble ahead!!!
 

lomotil

Well-known member
Mar 14, 2004
6,356
1,227
113
Oblivion
America and China are involved in a death dance which is accelerating and spiralling down. The Chinese government cannot control their citizens increasing taste for capitalism. The yuan is unstable, runs on China's banks are coming. The US economy is on steriods, stimulus, money printing aka quantative easing. China and Japan hold and continue to buy US debt. This recipe is not looking very delicious.
 

Viggo Rasmussen

New member
Feb 5, 2010
2,652
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The economy is no big deal, it's fucking with the basics like land, air and water that will do us in.
It's harder to get the remaining oil, natural gas and coal out of the ground and we don't care if fracking destroys the ecosystem to do it.
 

Ringworld

Banned
Jun 29, 2013
91
0
0
The economy isn't going to collapse. There are a couple of things happening right now. Natural resources are getting more scarce, which lowers the overall standard of living. In addition, the economy isn't finished re-adjusting itself to the economic efficiences introducted by the internet; internet shopping, re-use (Ebay), and job hunting. There will be job contraction in some areas, and expansion in others.

Everyone talks about the middle class being hollowed out. I personally don't see it, and maybe it depends on how you define 'middle class'. I consider myself middle class and nobody I know is hurting. Having said that, my demographic consists of college and university educated white collar types. Engineers, programmers, marketing types, etc. What's disappeared is the ability to walk out of high school and into a good paying union job in a factory, such as working the line at GM (I'm from Oshawa). Thing is, we've known since the 80's that was on its way out.
 

wetnose

Gamahucher
Nov 14, 2006
2,445
0
36
Reason why I'm bringing this up, is that, earlier this week a large conglomerate came into Canada and shut down
a 40 million+ distribution centre, with many branches and many employees across Canada.. Reason being
(They were not profitable) I work in this industry and its a very important one to all of us.
My question to the business men on this board, do you feel bad times ahead? I certainly do,
and also judging from the fluctuating gas prices, I'm worried ?

Any feed back would be appreciated.
100 years ago, this could have been written by somebody who was in the buggy whip industry.

The economy changes all the time; new industries emerge and old ones die.
 

BlueLaser

New member
Jan 28, 2014
1,023
0
0
The economy isn't going to collapse. There are a couple of things happening right now. Natural resources are getting more scarce, which lowers the overall standard of living. In addition, the economy isn't finished re-adjusting itself to the economic efficiences introducted by the internet; internet shopping, re-use (Ebay), and job hunting. There will be job contraction in some areas, and expansion in others.

Everyone talks about the middle class being hollowed out. I personally don't see it, and maybe it depends on how you define 'middle class'. I consider myself middle class and nobody I know is hurting. Having said that, my demographic consists of college and university educated white collar types. Engineers, programmers, marketing types, etc. What's disappeared is the ability to walk out of high school and into a good paying union job in a factory, such as working the line at GM (I'm from Oshawa). Thing is, we've known since the 80's that was on its way out.
It's probably worth noting that engineers and programmers, at one point in time, were upper class and have slowly been moving down. You can say you don't see it, but you would if you actually looked. The upper middle class can't enjoy the same lifestyle it used to and slowly the average income corrected for inflation for engineers and the like is coming down to. When you're firmly in the median of middle class, you'll realize how bad things are. As a pilot, meaning I work in the industry most keenly effected by changes in economic situation, it's quite obvious that year-over-year things are going worse and worse. Even within our rank and file, the economic position of individuals is slowly being pulled down. Look at Air Canada. Pilots today earn 10% less than they did 10 years ago. That's not an adjusted for inflation figure, that's a flat reduction in pay. Pilots agreed to wage freezes in '09, then in '11 when the contract was up, tried to bargain for a restructured pay that would bring them in line with the increases in pay executives had seen while they had been under the freeze, only to be forced back to work by the government for less than what Air Canada had already offered them. When arbitration was done, not only did the wages increase by a mere fraction of what the executives saw, the two-tiered pension system means new hires at Air Canada have a vastly reduced total compensation. Meanwhile, the executives are still getting raises, bonuses and pensions.

This, Ringworld, is how the decline of the middle class is taking place. Slowly, gradually, but in definite steps. I bet the vast majority of engineers and programmers 10-20 years ago were getting full pensions. How many of them get that now? And don't kid yourself, employer match is only a fraction of the compensation that a defined benefits pension has. As a whole, the buying power of the middle class is being reduced, year over year, while the distribution of wealth is skewing more and more towards the top earners. While I appreciate that the upper incomes are paying the vast majority of the taxes, much more than their distribution of income would suggest they should, I'd appreciate it more if the wealth was better distributed and the tax burden with it. And that's coming from a guy sitting in the top bracket. I'd rather pay less in taxes because a healthier middle class (which make no mistake, despite being in the top tax bracket I am definitely only middle class as well) can afford to pay more of it too.

In my industry, newcomers to the top tier airlines are barely above the poverty line. When I flew with WestJet, back in 2005, I was lucky to come from the military and get to jump a few rungs. A first officer, during their first year of employment, take home was about $800 per check. This is a job that requires years and years of experience to get in addition to about $60-70k worth of out-of-pocket expenses on your initial training. For those years and years, those guys were making $10-30k/yr. Finally, after sometimes a decade of slugging it out, they hit the big time - a major airline. And get $800/2 weeks. Yes, there are ESP and stock options, and if the company continues to do well those can be valued very highly. Adjusted salary is about $120k/yr if you include those, but for a guy that's got debt to pay off, and lots of it, that extra money locked away in investments would be better served reducing the debt that's been accrued. So that $20k/yr of salary that you can spend puts you firmly $2,500/yr above the poverty line. This is Westjet, paying the guy who keeps you safe $20k/yr after tax. Keep that in mind next time you're on a Dash 8 or a regional jet that might say United, Delta or Air Canada on the side but is being operated by one of the small feeders where the pilot is probably still paying only the interest on the loans he took out to get his license. The reality is that I have a "career" that's seen by most as very profitable and secure, meanwhile furloughs are extremely common at the cargo carriers and the average income for a pilot is about $45k/yr with the median around $60k/yr, the vast majority without a pension of any kind, not even defined contribution. And we're starting to see this trend happen everywhere. Even the salary for first year associates in law firms is plummeting. Last I read it was a decline in salary offers by 7% year over year while inflation certainly isn't declining year after year - it might reduce but it's always marching upwards.

I agree the economy isn't going to collapse, but the middle class is definitely being hollowed out and if you can't see it than it means you're choosing to look away.
 

Big Sleazy

Active member
Sep 13, 2004
3,535
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38
The world's monetary and financial system collapsed in 2008. Essentially making every single major Bank on the planet insolvent. We had a chance to fix the saystem. We didn't. We issued TARP Funds, QE1, QE2, QE3, QE4. The Federal Reserve says that they are now tapering. You can't taper a ponzi scheme. And the proof is take a look at the TIC report ( Treasuries In Circulation ). It shows Belgium, an economy of 200 Billion purchasing 300 Billion of US Treasuries. Not possible. So we know they are lying. Therefore a collapse is 100% certain and baked into the cake. I think sooner rather than later.

BS
 

Insidious Von

My head is my home
Sep 12, 2007
38,761
6,741
113
Spare an hour out of a hectic day and watch this documentary, it's worth the time.

 

thirdcup

Well-known member
Jan 4, 2005
1,333
110
63
Directly above the center of the earth
It's a race to the bottom.
Many years ago I read 'The World is Flat' which explains among other things, that thanks to technology, the barriers that made many jobs too costly to move offshore have now come down. Thus, if you did passably well in your job you didn't have to worry. Not any more. Things have become much more competitive.
 
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