Vaughan Spa

How much do we owe other people

barnacler

Well-known member
May 13, 2013
1,591
1,028
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This is something that genuinely troubles me.

I remember when I was a teenager, I was involved one evening in a conversation with someone who had some wealth, but was also talking about helping other people. But also living very high off the hog.

So I said, you know, ( and this was the 70s) , for $10 /month you can save someone's life in Africa. So doesn't that mean that since you spend more than $10 a month on so many things - gas for a motorboat, etc etc. that you value buzzing around the lake in your boat more than saving someone's life in Africa?

He said no, but I pressed him, saying it is only logic, you can clearly save a life by giving $10 a month , but you don't , therefore you value your own enjoyment over saving a life.

I didn't get a satisfactory answer.

But it wasn't a fair question, because almost all of us could be asked the same thing.

Why not stop spending on X - Tim hortons, Starbucks, massages, trips , you name it - and save lives?

Now, I wasn't trying to condemn him, but it was a sort of puzzle to me.

So here I am, drinking a $19 bottle of wine. I spend all sorts of money on all sorts of things. Most people do. I don't fly economy class. The difference could keep maybe 5 people alive for a year. Does that make me a murderer?

I know there are people in absolute misery in the world. Terrible, terrible lives. There are still slaves in this world. Trafficked people. People unjustly imprisoned, displaced, diseased, the list goes on forever.

I am NOT comfortable with the idea that I owe other people my life, and yet I sometimes feel terribly guilty at my relative luxury.

I have people from time to time ask me to borrow money, and I always turn them down , figuring that their situation in spite of everything is so much better then many others in the world.

I do give quite a bit to charity, but its hard to be sure it is efficiently spent.

I remember Warren Buffett was In China, and he saw men on the sides of a canal or river or whatever he was travelling on, pulling his boat forward by ropes, and he wondered, how wany of those men, pulling on ropes like oxen, could have achieved so much more given opportunity.

I am troubled by all of this.
 

seanzo

Well-known member
Nov 29, 2008
470
659
93
As a thought exercise, remove all humans from planet earth and everything they have created. What you are left with is a planet ruled by Darwinian forces. The strong survive, thrive even. The weak die in ghastly numbers. What you see in the world today is a direct result of those same Darwinian forces. It's nasty and unpleasant, any person with the slightest bit of moral fiber should be sickened by it. But let's be realistic here, the forces that created life on this planet cannot be tamed by giving a few dollars to charities every month. Thinking otherwise is a fools errand. None of what you described is any problem of yours and there is no amount of money you can spend to make it stop. As a brilliant street poet from the Bronx once said, life is a bitch and then you die
 

LTO_3

Well-known member
Aug 27, 2004
1,461
1,198
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Niagara Region
We work our lives to be independent and wealthy (hopefully) and once we achieve that we spend to enjoy these items - trips, homes, vacations, SPs, etc because we worked hard to obtain and/or enjoy these pleasures. Although we may contribute to "saving a starving person" that's not always a priority since we've worked hard to amass our comfortable lifestyle. Should that make me/us feel guilty by not "saving" someone? I say no because that is a person conviction that doesn't apply to all of us.
I contribute to certain charitable groups every year and I am content by doing that and even did that when I was cash poor. If you need to contribute to "save someone" to ease your feelings of guilt, then that's everyone's and your person choice.

LTO_3
 
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jeff2

Well-known member
Sep 11, 2004
1,973
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As a thought exercise, remove all humans from planet earth and everything they have created. What you are left with is a planet ruled by Darwinian forces. The strong survive, thrive even. The weak die in ghastly numbers. What you see in the world today is a direct result of those same Darwinian forces. It's nasty and unpleasant, any person with the slightest bit of moral fiber should be sickened by it. But let's be realistic here, the forces that created life on this planet cannot be tamed by giving a few dollars to charities every month. Thinking otherwise is a fools errand. None of what you described is any problem of yours and there is no amount of money you can spend to make it stop. As a brilliant street poet from the Bronx once said, life is a bitch and then you die
When I hear moral fiber I think of my uncle(WW2 pilot) telling me about a plane dropping bombs in the ocean instead of over Germany. Somehow, the airmen got caught and were labelled with "lack of moral fiber". They then started installing cameras in the planes to see where bombs were dropped.
 
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southpaw

Well-known member
May 21, 2002
1,330
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Why not stop spending on X - Tim hortons, Starbucks, massages, trips , you name it - and save lives?
Because that will only produce more lives to be saved. Take your example of Africa from the 70s. Are they better off today?
 

xix

Time Zone Traveller
Jul 27, 2002
4,679
1,682
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La la land
Covid 19 Vaccine sure did a number on people's head.

Want to save the world, don't see SW, instead send the money to a charity. They will buy the booze for those in need.
 
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Robert Mugabe

Well-known member
Nov 5, 2017
10,592
7,802
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I contribute to a couple of charities. The kid I sponsored in 2007 age 8 is doing well in primary school. Still. Actually to be fair, the charity sends me news letters with a different kid now. Not that it makes any difference. People are ramping up the killing on a second world war level. China is chomping at the bit for Taiwan. Russia is doing what Russia does.
As far as lending "friends" money. I can report that not one of them has paid me back. Reminds me of Robert Diniro in Joey Boy. "You were the only person dumb enough to lend me money when nobody else would. "
Humans have always been cancer.
 
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jeff2

Well-known member
Sep 11, 2004
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Because that will only produce more lives to be saved. Take your example of Africa from the 70s. Are they better off today?
More obese than starving overall I believe these days. But still some exceptions like Sub-Saharan Africa.


AI Overview

Yes, obesity now surpasses underweight globally and in every region except for South-East Asia and Sub-Saharan Africa. In children, for the first time, the number of obese children worldwide has exceeded the number of underweight children. This trend is driven by a global shift to cheaper, energy-dense, imported foods and is observed in both high-income and middle-income countries, with the latter seeing the most rapid increases.
 

katrinako

New member
Jan 9, 2025
9
8
3
I remember Warren Buffett was In China, and he saw men on the sides of a canal or river or whatever he was travelling on, pulling his boat forward by ropes, and he wondered, how wany of those men, pulling on ropes like oxen, could have achieved so much more given opportunity.

I am troubled by all of this.
Think about this very carefully. They are achieving a lot now and it threatens your very freedom.
 

southpaw

Well-known member
May 21, 2002
1,330
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lunaseraphim

Supporting Member
Jun 8, 2025
67
86
18
I think when these discussions happen people often think in extremes.. I think we all owe each other something, at least support, kindness and respect. We don't live in a fair world and I think some of us have more advantages than others and should share. If I get served by an underpaid and overworked employee, I will tip that person well. If a friend of mine doesn't have any money to eat, I will bring them food. ''I don't owe anyone anything'' is a mentality I really dislike.. It's not about giving everything up or giving loads of cash to charities, it's just realizing that we aren't the center of the universe and that everyone deserves mutual aid. I've noticed that some very well off people are rarely generous and always concerned with spending the least money possible, unless it's for their own pleasure. I've always thought that was a bit weird. As someone who's been poor for a long time and who's had friends who grew up very poor, I've seen people in really bad financial situations give the shirt off their backs to someone, so to speak..
 

xmontrealer

(he/him/it)
May 23, 2005
11,129
8,893
113
This is something that genuinely troubles me.

I remember when I was a teenager, I was involved one evening in a conversation with someone who had some wealth, but was also talking about helping other people. But also living very high off the hog.

So I said, you know, ( and this was the 70s) , for $10 /month you can save someone's life in Africa. So doesn't that mean that since you spend more than $10 a month on so many things - gas for a motorboat, etc etc. that you value buzzing around the lake in your boat more than saving someone's life in Africa?

He said no, but I pressed him, saying it is only logic, you can clearly save a life by giving $10 a month , but you don't , therefore you value your own enjoyment over saving a life.

I didn't get a satisfactory answer.

But it wasn't a fair question, because almost all of us could be asked the same thing.

Why not stop spending on X - Tim hortons, Starbucks, massages, trips , you name it - and save lives?

Now, I wasn't trying to condemn him, but it was a sort of puzzle to me.

So here I am, drinking a $19 bottle of wine. I spend all sorts of money on all sorts of things. Most people do. I don't fly economy class. The difference could keep maybe 5 people alive for a year. Does that make me a murderer?

I know there are people in absolute misery in the world. Terrible, terrible lives. There are still slaves in this world. Trafficked people. People unjustly imprisoned, displaced, diseased, the list goes on forever.

I am NOT comfortable with the idea that I owe other people my life, and yet I sometimes feel terribly guilty at my relative luxury.

I have people from time to time ask me to borrow money, and I always turn them down , figuring that their situation in spite of everything is so much better then many others in the world.

I do give quite a bit to charity, but its hard to be sure it is efficiently spent.

I remember Warren Buffett was In China, and he saw men on the sides of a canal or river or whatever he was travelling on, pulling his boat forward by ropes, and he wondered, how wany of those men, pulling on ropes like oxen, could have achieved so much more given opportunity.

I am troubled by all of this.
There is a web site, "Charity Intelligence Canada", that rates most medium to large charities in Canada, and in many cases does a deep dive on their financials and effectiveness, including the percentage of donations received that go to the actual cause.

I find it very helpful in deciding which charities to support.

https://www.charityintelligence.ca/
 
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