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HIV window period 2 to 4 weeks max

lenny2

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According to one of the world's leading authorities on STI's:

"NAAT and PCR are the same thing. This test and the p24 antigen test both are ways to test for the presence of HIV in the blood. Of the two tests, PCR/NAAT is the more accurate one; all by itself, a negative result any time more than about 2 weeks after exposure is virtually 100% proof against HIV -- i.e. I agree with Dr. Hook's statement that negative results with both antibody and PCR at 4 weeks would be definitive. (NAAT is the test blood banks use on all donated blood to make sure there is no transfusion related HIV in the US -- and there hasn't been a case of HIV in the US following transfusion for many years.)

http://www.medhelp.org/posts/HIV---Prevention/NAT-Test/show/1606034

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2010-03/uow--dhh030310.php
 

LKD

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I saw on CNN that there is now a take home hiv test that is 99.9% being sold at pharmacies. All you need to do is take a scraping from the inside of your mouth. Anyone use it?
 

mrsCALoki

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Is that the best you could come up with, some anonymous whiny posters with no credentials?

Why not quote your beloved CDC?


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Given your vast medical knowledge you must be right and they must be the best. Certainly one of the most profitable and rather large.

http://medical.nettop20.com/ :)
 

lenny2

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Given your vast medical knowledge you must be right and they must be the best. Certainly one of the most profitable and rather large.

http://medical.nettop20.com/ :)
Thank you for that url.

Now, getting back to the original topic, this is what the CDC says:

"Another type of test is an RNA test, which detects the HIV virus directly. The time between HIV infection and RNA detection is 9–11 days. These tests, which are more costly and used less often than antibody tests, are used in some parts of the United States."


http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/testing/resources/qa/index.htm
 

lenny2

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Jan 18, 2012
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I saw on CNN that there is now a take home hiv test that is 99.9% being sold at pharmacies. All you need to do is take a scraping from the inside of your mouth. Anyone use it?
Pharmacies in the USA?
 

LKD

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Aug 6, 2006
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Pharmacies in the USA?
It was on CNN recently so I don't know if its available in Canada yet, but it shouldn't be long until we can buy it if it isn't... a take home test that is 99.9 % accurate
 

mrsCALoki

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Thank you for that url.

Now, getting back to the original topic, this is what the CDC says:

"Another type of test is an RNA test, which detects the HIV virus directly. The time between HIV infection and RNA detection is 9–11 days. These tests, which are more costly and used less often than antibody tests, are used in some parts of the United States."


http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/testing/resources/qa/index.htm

I thought you lived in Canada :).

Why do you care how long the window is in some US states?
 

lenny2

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I thought you lived in Canada :).

Why do you care how long the window is in some US states?
Scientificly speaking, the window period is what it is, and doesn't vary from state to state or country to country, so it doesn't matter where i live in that regard.

Practicly speaking, i find that many people on forums such as this are misinformed, thinking they have to wait 3, 6, 12 months or longer before they can be sure they are HIV negative. A hell of a lot of anxiety is often experienced during those months, anxiety which leads to illnesses & other problems that could have been avoided.

The applications of a much shorter window period include, for examples, cases of SP's & clients who've had "condom failures", couples wanting to know their partner is STI free before engaging in sex, those who wish to forgoe condom use more safely, etc

I don't know about Ontario, but in Vancouver & Bangkok both NAT & antigen HIV tests are available. BC Medical even covers the cost of the latter.


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Something For The Girl With Everything
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnM3Iq977JU
 

MyHobbyist

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According to one of the world's leading authorities on STI's:

"NAAT and PCR are the same thing. This test and the p24 antigen test both are ways to test for the presence of HIV in the blood. Of the two tests, PCR/NAAT is the more accurate one; all by itself, a negative result any time more than about 2 weeks after exposure is virtually 100% proof against HIV -- i.e. I agree with Dr. Hook's statement that negative results with both antibody and PCR at 4 weeks would be definitive. (NAAT is the test blood banks use on all donated blood to make sure there is no transfusion related HIV in the US -- and there hasn't been a case of HIV in the US following transfusion for many years.)

http://www.medhelp.org/posts/HIV---Prevention/NAT-Test/show/1606034

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2010-03/uow--dhh030310.php
interesting reads..
 

mrsCALoki

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Scientificly speaking, the window period is what it is, and doesn't vary from state to state or country to country, so it doesn't matter where i live in that regard.
no hun. The "window" concept is based on the test being used, as well as the individual being tested. In the US different states use different tests. When I left Canada in Ontario at least the RNA test was not the norm., Siemens ADVIA Centaur HIV-1/O/2 EIA was the screening test used. BioRad Genetic Systems HIV-1 Western Blot was the gold standard. The window is governed by the test used. You need to ask the Doctor giving you the test what the window is for that test.

If the patient has a compromised immune response it will drastically change the window. If the patient has the money to receive a prophylactic treatment from a suspected exposure the window can approach a year regardless of the test. YOU NEED TO ASK YOUR DOCTOR. That is also why there are concerns about "clinics" and "home tests". Without your history the tests may or may not have the window that others have.

Practicly speaking, i find that many people on forums such as this are misinformed,
Yes, obviously.

I don't know about Ontario, but in Vancouver & Bangkok both NAT & antigen HIV tests are available. BC Medical even covers the cost of the latter.
Really? WOW. I do not have the time, desire, and energy to check with the BCCDC :). I do know that when I left in December the pooled RNA test was not approved yet. The Roche COBAS TaqMan HIV-1 RNA Test was used for indeterminate results checking after the 3rd Gen EIA and/or Western Blot. I also know that only a few jurisdictions are using the state of the art tests. But I guess the world has changed since you know more than I do :)

In Canada the bioLytical INSTITM HIV-1 Antibody Test Kit is the only licensed point of care test in Canada. Indow is about a week longer than the 3rd Generation EIA test. Oh it only tests for HIV-1. :(

I guess I will just repeat my statement about this since it was first brought up months ago. Go see a doctor that takes a full history and have them tell you what is going on with your tests and how long it will take to be "safe".

:)

Oh and for the record, yes IF you have an all clear at 4 weeks with the RNA quantitative test and no immune suppression issues you are virtually guaranteed to be ok. :)
 

lenny2

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no hun. The "window" concept is based on the test being used, as well as the individual being tested.
I am aware of that. You are the one who referred to "how long the window is in some US states", so i assumed in my reply that you were referring to the original subject of this thread, namely the maximum period required between a HIV infection and a NAT test detecting it. As i said, this will not vary from state to state or between countries. Like you say here:

IF you have an all clear at 4 weeks with the RNA quantitative test and no immune suppression issues you are virtually guaranteed to be ok.
 

mrsCALoki

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I am aware of that. You are the one who referred to "how long the window is in some US states", so i assumed in my reply that you were referring to the original subject of this thread, namely the maximum period required between a HIV infection and a NAT test detecting it. As i said, this will not vary from state to state or between countries. Like you say here:

Dahhhhhh no I am referring to the simple fact that many states do not use RNA specific as a primary test. Most medical jurisdiction set their own standards. Even more so when it is in a publicly funded test. You get tested using the tests that a state uses. Simple. The window depends on where you are being tested. So does the accuracy. Many jurisdictions do not even do a full range of HIV tests and only do the HIV-1 strains. And of course HIV-2 's window is different as well.

Individuals who had transplants also have radically different windows than most people.

Most people are too misinformed to even know which test they are receiving, let alone what the implications of that test are. People should talk to their Doctor not rely on the interpretation of self appointed experts who just do not have the training to understand what they read in the popular press :)

By the way, you keep talking about Vancouver, are you there or in Ontario?
 

lenny2

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People should talk to their Doctor not rely on the interpretation of self appointed experts who just do not have the training to understand what they read in the popular press :)
I talked to one of my doctors in a walk in clinic in Vancouver, asking for a p24 antigen test for HIV. He didn't even know what it is, let alone that it is covered by BC medical. BTW, do you happen to know if it is covered by Ontario medical or in other provinces?

I think the STI expert in the OP should stand in contrast to "the popular press". To quote another expert:

"Most HIV PCR tests however are positive within two weeks following exposure and the combination of a negative antibody test and a negative PCR test at 4 weeks (or beyond) should be considered definitive evidence that you did not get HIV in the exposure that you describe. I would not worry and see no need for further testing."

http://www.medhelp.org/posts/HIV---...28-days/show/1364872?personal_page_id=1721688

However if you prefer the opinion of mere doctors over experts:

"My doctor confirmed that I DO NOT have HIV and no more tests are needed, because above mentioned tests at 4 weeks are confirmatory."

http://www.medhelp.org/posts/HIV---...28-days/show/1364872?personal_page_id=1721688

"FYI, I consulted at least 5 doctors and all said RNA PCR and antibody at 4 weeks is confirmative."

http://www.medhelp.org/posts/HIV-Prevention/PCR-test-negative-after-4-Weeks/show/1355725
 

mrsCALoki

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I talked to one of my doctors in a walk in clinic in Vancouver, asking for a p24 antigen test for HIV. He didn't even know what it is, let alone that it is covered by BC medical. BTW, do you happen to know if it is covered by Ontario medical or in other provinces?
Let me try one more time. Doctors follow protocols created by local agencies. They use tests as defined by the protocols. The window is dependant on the protocols used. Got that? MOST STATES ARE NOT USING STATE OF THE ART RNA TESTING AS A FIRST SCREENING TOOL YET !

As far as I know pool RNA tests in BC are still being evaluated and mostly limited to mixed blood at blood banks and gay clinic samples.

And really, does it matter?

You have to abstain from all risk behaviour from the beginning of the window period till you get the results for them to confirm you are negative. And unless you ask your doctor how long to wait after the last risk exposure, how will the average person know how long to wait. They will not even know what test is being used.

You keep talking about quick tests in other parts of the world. YOU MIGHT WANT TO CHECK WHAT THEY ACTUALLY ARE USING. Point of use tests are mostly limited to HIV-1. :) Not to useful in large parts of the world where other strains are catching up.

One more time: the types of test used are set by local authorities. There is no standard protocols between countries, or even states. I suspect the same applies to provinces. The "window" time (the time from infection to being able to take a sample and have detection at a specific confidence level) is based on the protocol used to test you. It is not a fixed number of days. Your statements are sort of true but do not allow for local reality and what protocols are being used.

Can you insist on a specific test? Depends on the doctor you are talking to, some will, most follow the local protocols. ASK THE DOCTOR what the window will be. You do know that even after the first set of tests the protocols do require follow up more accurate tests before treatment begins? So the window is only a part of the delay between the decision to have a test and starting treatment?


Can I tell you what is paid for in Ontario? If you follow the protocols, pretty much all the tests available. BUT in most cases they have to be taken as specified in the protocols :) and in the order specified.

I give up on you lenny, you are convinced you can discover 'truth' on the internet and have all the skills and education to interpret what you are reading. If you care that much go to school and get an education in the field so you can understand the fundamentals. :) I am tired of trying to explain fundamentals to you.
 

lenny2

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Jan 18, 2012
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MOST STATES ARE NOT USING STATE OF THE ART RNA TESTING AS A FIRST SCREENING TOOL YET !
"I live in San Francisco and the San Francisco City Clinic and Magnet state that the conclusive window period for RNA/NAAT is 2 weeks and not to take past 4 weeks. Seattle/King County also say the same thing...Seems more and more public health services are starting to offer this test to shorten the window?"

http://www.thebody.com/Forums/AIDS/SafeSex/Q198120.html
 

lenny2

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Jan 18, 2012
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http://www.catie.ca/en/pif/fall-2010/detecting-hiv-earlier-advances-hiv-testing

Detecting HIV earlier: Advances in HIV testing

Since the early days of the HIV epidemic, HIV tests have improved considerably. We now have multiple methods to test for HIV infection, and today’s testing technologies are getting better at detecting new infections. This has led some HIV testing experts to suggest that we can detect the vast majority of HIV infections much earlier than many people realize. This article will review the scientific evidence on the early detection of HIV to help guide our messaging about HIV testing.

...Newer testing technologies can now detect HIV antibodies when there are lower concentrations in the blood and hence are able to detect an HIV infection much sooner.

...Older HIV antibody tests were significantly less able than newer tests to detect low levels of HIV antibodies in a person’s blood, which is why in the past the window period was set at 6 months.

Across Canada, all labs use newer, more sensitive antibody tests (this includes rapid (point-of-care) HIV tests). For more on rapid HIV testing, see A rapid approach to community-based HIV testing. Research shows us that with these new tests, as many as 95% of people who test positive will do so within 34 days of exposure to HIV.10 However, for the remaining 5%, the window period for these HIV antibody tests is generally accepted to be three months so as to ensure people who take longer to develop antibodies are not overlooked. This means that if someone tests negative for HIV antibodies during the window period, they should be re-tested three months after possible exposure, to fully rule out HIV infection.

There are some rare exceptions which may require someone to retest up to six months after exposure:

• People who have a severely impaired immune system may take longer to develop HIV antibodies.
• People who have taken post-exposure prophylaxis (PEP).

Tests that directly detect HIV

There are a number of technologies that detect HIV itself. However, at this time, these tests are not offered uniformly throughout Canada or within provinces and territories. It is important to do some research and find out which testing services are available for your clients to help ensure effective messaging for someone who thinks they have recently been exposed to HIV.

The two most commonly used tests that detect HIV directly are the p24 antigen test and the HIV nucleic acid amplification test (NAT).

...The HIV p24 antigen test, the most widely available of the two, is designed to detect a protein (the p24 protein) associated with HIV. The p24 antigen test can detect the p24 protein on average 10 to 14 days after infection with HIV.2,3,11,12 One drawback of this test is that levels of the p24 protein peak at around three to four weeks after exposure to HIV and are usually not detectable after five to six weeks (and sometimes even earlier).

...Currently, the most advanced tests combine a p24 antigen test and an antibody test. While combination tests are available in some regions across Canada, they are not yet available everywhere. These tests are seen as beneficial because they combine the early detection abilities of the p24 antigen test with the accuracy of the newer antibody tests. It should be noted that a rapid (point-of-care) version of these tests is not yet available.

...The HIV NAT test is a very sensitive test designed to detect HIV RNA in blood. RNA is the viral equivalent to human DNA. The NAT test is able to detect HIV RNA as early as seven to 14 days after infection with HIV.2,3,11,12 Unlike the p24 test, the NAT test will always give a positive result as long as there is HIV in someone’s blood.

NAT testing is currently being offered in six clinics in British Columbia as part of a five-year study called the Acute HIV Infection Study (http://www.acutehivstudy.com). One of the objectives of this study is to investigate the impact of new testing technologies on gay men’s testing practices.

...In places where p24 antigen tests or HIV NAT tests are available, these tests are often used for individuals who have recently had a high-risk exposure and are either (a) in the three-month window period of the antibody test, or (b) experiencing symptoms of a new HIV infection (most often flu-like symptoms, including a fever, diarrhea, rash and/or sore throat). The p24 antigen test is also used when indeterminate results are obtained from an HIV antibody test (the test couldn’t give a clear answer).

...It is also important to talk about the symptoms of seroconversion when we talk about testing. Educating clients about the symptoms of seroconversion may increase the likelihood that they will get tested if they experience symptoms. Seroconversion symptoms can occur from two to four weeks after infection and may include flu-like symptoms, such as fatigue, fever, sore throat, swollen lymph nodes, headache, loss of appetite or skin rash. This illness usually lasts less than two weeks although it can last as long as 10 weeks. If a client has had a recent high-risk encounter and experiences any of these symptoms, they should be encouraged to have an HIV test. Depending on the time since infection, the antibody test may not give an accurate result. However, if available, the p24 antigen test will be able to give an accurate result two to four weeks following infection and the NAT test will be accurate in as little as seven to 14 days after infection.

...The early detection of HIV is important because people who are newly infected are very infectious and may inadvertently transmit HIV to others. There is still a lot of misunderstanding about how soon one should get tested after potential HIV exposure. Many people still believe they have to wait three months. However, new and improved testing technologies are continually decreasing the amount of time it takes for a new HIV infection to be detected.

In the case of clients at high risk of HIV, testing can be done as early as one month after exposure for standard antibody assays and rapid point-of-care tests. Clients who test positive will know for certain they are HIV-positive. Of those who test negative, 95% are in fact negative. It is important to realize that up to 5% of people who test negative at one month could later test positive at three months. It is important to ensure that people testing negative at one month are advised to return for repeat testing once the three-month window period is covered.

The p24 antigen test and the HIV NAT test could be used to test for HIV in people who think they were recently exposed to HIV. These tests are useful for people who think they have recently seroconverted. As these tests may not be readily available in all cities and towns across Canada, it may be useful to find out when and where these new and improved testing technologies will be offered in your area.


http://www.catie.ca/en/pif/fall-2010/detecting-hiv-earlier-advances-hiv-testing
 

lenny2

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Can you insist on a specific test?
If i want a p24 antigen test in BC, i can go to my doctor or any walk in clinic and tell them that i had a recent "condom failure" & would like that test as well as the antibody test for HIV. That is what i did, though the doctor didn't know what the test was, but after learning what it was with my help, he sent me to get it done.

If i want a NAT HIV test i could go to any place for blood donations that gives said test. Or to a clinic that offers it. Even if it caters to gays they have no way of knowing what my lifestyle is.

In Bangkok there was a clinic offering the NAT for free. World class Bumrungrad hospital also has the NAT test at a cost of about 2500 baht with results in 3 days. Or two hour results with duo p24 antigen/antibody (AG/AN) for around 700 baht. I assume other hospitals & clinics there also have these tests.

Closer to home for a Canadian would be clinics in Seattle, San Fransisco, New York, etc. Though i don't know if there would be any point in going there just for the test when one can easily get the testing done here. Maybe if a guy was having sex while in the USA on business, holiday, or for the Canadian winter he might want to use the American services.
 

mrsCALoki

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Jul 27, 2011
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Lenny's Thread title..... HIV window period 2 to 4 weeks.


Lenny's research:

http://www.catie.ca/en/pif/fall-2010/detecting-hiv-earlier-advances-hiv-testing

Across Canada, all labs use newer, more sensitive antibody tests... Research shows us that with these new tests, as many as 95% of people who test positive will do so within 34 days of exposure to HIV.10 However, for the remaining 5%, the window period for these HIV antibody tests is generally accepted to be three months ...

There are some rare exceptions which may require someone to retest up to six months after exposure:

• People who have a severely impaired immune system may take longer to develop HIV antibodies.
• People who have taken post-exposure prophylaxis (PEP).
Gee sounds like what I said. 4 weeks = 28 days by the way.

Tests that directly detect HIV ... at this time, these tests are not offered uniformly throughout Canada or within provinces and territories. It is important to do some research and find out which testing services are available for your clients to help ensure effective messaging for someone who thinks they have recently been exposed to HIV.....

NAT testing is currently being offered in six clinics in British Columbia as part of a five-year study called the Acute HIV Infection Study (http://www.acutehivstudy.com). One of the objectives of this study is to investigate the impact of new testing technologies on gay men’s testing practices.

... if available, the p24 antigen test will be able to give an accurate result two to four weeks following infection and the NAT test will be accurate in as little as seven to 14 days after infection.

http://www.catie.ca/en/pif/fall-2010/detecting-hiv-earlier-advances-hiv-testing

My goodness, who could have guessed? The HIV testing window is dependant on where you are. Wow.
 
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