Toronto Passions

Give Putin What He Wants

danmand

Well-known member
Nov 28, 2003
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Give Putin What He Wants
BY CHARLES PIERSON


On October 8, 1962, Cuban President Osvaldo Dorticós told the UN General Assembly that there would be no need for Cuba to possess nuclear weapons were the US to guarantee that it would not invade Cuba as the US had attempted to do the year before. In other words, Cuba would trade missiles for a US security guarantee.
Now, Russia’s Vladimir Putin is requesting a guarantee that Ukraine will not join NATO. The US should agree.
* * *
Putin is detestable. As I was writing this, news broke of another massacre in the Central African Republic by the Kremlin-backed mercenaries of the Wagner Group which left 70 people dead. In Syria, Putin kills innocent men, women, and children in league with Bashar al-Assad and Iran. He has crushed Russia’s fledgling democracy. I hate the guy. But I have to admit that there is nothing unreasonable about the security assurances Putin seeks. Putin asks for an end to NATO expansion and a guarantee that Ukraine will not join NATO. This is no more than what the US already promised under the first President Bush. In 1990, Bush’s secretary of state, James A. Baker III, told Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev that if Russia agreed to allow German reunification NATO would not expand “one inch” eastward.
The US soon broke its promise. Hungary, Poland, the Czech Republic, and the three Baltic States poured into NATO. Several former Soviet Republics, while not NATO members, cooperate with NATO. Now Putin sees NATO about to swallow Ukraine. Of course, he’s worried.
Unsurprisingly, the US has rejected the Russian leader’s requests (always styled as “demands” in US media). Putin’s reasonable concerns for his country’s security from invasion (recall 1812 and 1941) are dismissed as outlandish demands which Putin is making only so that they will be rejected and he will have an excuse to invade Ukraine with the 130,000 troops he has massed on the Russia-Ukraine border.
A Finlandized Ukraine
Following its defeat in World War Two, in which Finland had fought alongside Nazi Germany, Finland preserved its independence by establishing a modus vivendi with Russia. Finland would be democratically self-governing while shunning alliances with the West. Thus, the term “Finlandization” was born.
Finland’s “enforced neutrality,” as Helena Cobban wrote on the blog of the Quincy Institute for Responsible Statecraft, “allowed Finland to escape the decades of outright Soviet domination that plagued its Baltic neighbors in Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia for as long as the Cold War lasted” while allowing Finland to maintain a high standard of living. Not a bad bargain.
The crisis over Soviet missiles in Cuba was resolved along the lines Dorticós had suggested. On October 27, President Kennedy’s brother Attorney General Robert Kennedy met secretly with Soviet Ambassador Anatoly Dobrynin. The US pledged not to invade Cuba and the Soviets pledged to remove their missiles. (The US also promised to remove its Jupiter missiles from Turkey.) Nuclear war was averted.
The Ukraine crisis too can be resolved by extending security guarantees to Russia if the US acts fast. In the three weeks between Dorticós’ address to the UN General Assembly and Robert Kennedy’s meeting with Dobrynin the world came closer to nuclear war than at any time before or since. Nuclear war between the US and Russia over Ukraine does not seem likely, but we cannot dismiss the possibility of accident or miscalculation.
US Must Look in the Mirror
Does Russia interfere in other countries? So does the US. On January 23, the UK claimed that Russia was developing plans to install a pro-Russian government in Kyiv. That may or may not be true. If it is true, the US ought to sue Putin for plagiarism; in 2014, the Obama Administration and US media threw their weight behind antigovernment forces in Ukraine which eventually brought down Ukraine’s pro-Russian but democratically elected leader Viktor Yanukovych.
The US should hesitate before it goes charging off halfway around the globe to save Ukraine. Ukraine hasn’t asked to be saved. And Ukraine’s democracy is in better shape than democracy in the US. Only this week, CNN and the New York Times revealed further details of former President Donald Trump’s scheme to enlist the Attorney General, Pentagon, and Department of Homeland Security in seizing voting machines following Trump’s loss in the 2020 presidential election. The object of the scheme was to keep Trump in power permanently: a “self-coup.” American democracy is flaking away like paint chips from the walls of a condemned building. It will take more than a touch up job to restore democracy to what it was before Trump.
Finally, it is spectacular hypocrisy for the Biden Administration to wring its hands over lives in Ukraine while it continues to abet Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates in snuffing out innocent lives in Yemen. I’m no dramatist, but let me express what I mean in a three-line playlet:
USA: We must save Ukraine from bloodthirsty Putin.
ME: If the US is so worried about saving human lives wouldnt it be easier to end US arms sales and other support for the Saudis who are killing tens of thousands of innocent men, women, and children in Yemen?
USA (muttering): Stupid S.O.B.
[Curtain.]
Security guarantees to Russia will cost the US nothing. A neutral Ukraine can retain its sovereignty while sidestepping war.
Give Putin what he wants.
 

Darts

Well-known member
Jan 15, 2017
23,023
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"news broke of another massacre in the Central African Republic by the Kremlin-backed mercenaries of the Wagner Group which left 70 people dead. In Syria, Putin kills innocent men, women, and children in league with Bashar al-Assad and Iran."

Can this be true? Where are the protests by western liberals? Or, are lives killed by Russia and/or Russian backed forces worth less than the few lives accidentally killed by the West?
 

Leimonis

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2020
9,801
9,559
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"news broke of another massacre in the Central African Republic by the Kremlin-backed mercenaries of the Wagner Group which left 70 people dead. In Syria, Putin kills innocent men, women, and children in league with Bashar al-Assad and Iran."

Can this be true? Where are the protests by western liberals? Or, are lives killed by Russia and/or Russian backed forces worth less than the few lives accidentally killed by the West?
Lives of white people are not worth the same as lives of non white people?
 

y2kmark

Class of 69...
May 19, 2002
19,047
5,429
113
Lewiston, NY
Give Putin What He Wants
BY CHARLES PIERSON


On October 8, 1962, Cuban President Osvaldo Dorticós told the UN General Assembly that there would be no need for Cuba to possess nuclear weapons were the US to guarantee that it would not invade Cuba as the US had attempted to do the year before. In other words, Cuba would trade missiles for a US security guarantee.
Now, Russia’s Vladimir Putin is requesting a guarantee that Ukraine will not join NATO. The US should agree.
* * *
Putin is detestable. As I was writing this, news broke of another massacre in the Central African Republic by the Kremlin-backed mercenaries of the Wagner Group which left 70 people dead. In Syria, Putin kills innocent men, women, and children in league with Bashar al-Assad and Iran. He has crushed Russia’s fledgling democracy. I hate the guy. But I have to admit that there is nothing unreasonable about the security assurances Putin seeks. Putin asks for an end to NATO expansion and a guarantee that Ukraine will not join NATO. This is no more than what the US already promised under the first President Bush. In 1990, Bush’s secretary of state, James A. Baker III, told Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev that if Russia agreed to allow German reunification NATO would not expand “one inch” eastward.
The US soon broke its promise. Hungary, Poland, the Czech Republic, and the three Baltic States poured into NATO. Several former Soviet Republics, while not NATO members, cooperate with NATO. Now Putin sees NATO about to swallow Ukraine. Of course, he’s worried.
Unsurprisingly, the US has rejected the Russian leader’s requests (always styled as “demands” in US media). Putin’s reasonable concerns for his country’s security from invasion (recall 1812 and 1941) are dismissed as outlandish demands which Putin is making only so that they will be rejected and he will have an excuse to invade Ukraine with the 130,000 troops he has massed on the Russia-Ukraine border.
A Finlandized Ukraine
Following its defeat in World War Two, in which Finland had fought alongside Nazi Germany, Finland preserved its independence by establishing a modus vivendi with Russia. Finland would be democratically self-governing while shunning alliances with the West. Thus, the term “Finlandization” was born.
Finland’s “enforced neutrality,” as Helena Cobban wrote on the blog of the Quincy Institute for Responsible Statecraft, “allowed Finland to escape the decades of outright Soviet domination that plagued its Baltic neighbors in Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia for as long as the Cold War lasted” while allowing Finland to maintain a high standard of living. Not a bad bargain.
The crisis over Soviet missiles in Cuba was resolved along the lines Dorticós had suggested. On October 27, President Kennedy’s brother Attorney General Robert Kennedy met secretly with Soviet Ambassador Anatoly Dobrynin. The US pledged not to invade Cuba and the Soviets pledged to remove their missiles. (The US also promised to remove its Jupiter missiles from Turkey.) Nuclear war was averted.
The Ukraine crisis too can be resolved by extending security guarantees to Russia if the US acts fast. In the three weeks between Dorticós’ address to the UN General Assembly and Robert Kennedy’s meeting with Dobrynin the world came closer to nuclear war than at any time before or since. Nuclear war between the US and Russia over Ukraine does not seem likely, but we cannot dismiss the possibility of accident or miscalculation.
US Must Look in the Mirror
Does Russia interfere in other countries? So does the US. On January 23, the UK claimed that Russia was developing plans to install a pro-Russian government in Kyiv. That may or may not be true. If it is true, the US ought to sue Putin for plagiarism; in 2014, the Obama Administration and US media threw their weight behind antigovernment forces in Ukraine which eventually brought down Ukraine’s pro-Russian but democratically elected leader Viktor Yanukovych.
The US should hesitate before it goes charging off halfway around the globe to save Ukraine. Ukraine hasn’t asked to be saved. And Ukraine’s democracy is in better shape than democracy in the US. Only this week, CNN and the New York Times revealed further details of former President Donald Trump’s scheme to enlist the Attorney General, Pentagon, and Department of Homeland Security in seizing voting machines following Trump’s loss in the 2020 presidential election. The object of the scheme was to keep Trump in power permanently: a “self-coup.” American democracy is flaking away like paint chips from the walls of a condemned building. It will take more than a touch up job to restore democracy to what it was before Trump.
Finally, it is spectacular hypocrisy for the Biden Administration to wring its hands over lives in Ukraine while it continues to abet Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates in snuffing out innocent lives in Yemen. I’m no dramatist, but let me express what I mean in a three-line playlet:

Security guarantees to Russia will cost the US nothing. A neutral Ukraine can retain its sovereignty while sidestepping war.
Give Putin what he wants.
If that was all he wanted, Mr Chamberlain! He wants the whole Soviet Union back in place, including E. Germany eventually. He wants all of the old Ottoman Empire and he wants Alaska back - except for Sarah Palin...
 
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danmand

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Nov 28, 2003
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If that was all he wanted, Mr Chamberlain! He wants the whole Soviet Union back in place, including E. Germany eventually. He wants all of the old Ottoman Empire and he wants Alaska back - except for Sarah Palin...
I doubt it. He has enough troubles with the real estate and people in current Russia.

I once took the Sibirian express from Moscow to Ulaan Baatar, and there is a lot of landscape on the way.
 

Leimonis

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Feb 28, 2020
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I doubt it. He has enough troubles with the real estate and people in current Russia.
What troubles you speak of? He openly poisons his political opponents in Russia and the population supports him. He has the gop in his pocket in America and they parrot his talking points and who knows what else. He is as comfortable as one can ever hope to be.
 
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danmand

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Nov 28, 2003
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What troubles you speak of? He openly poisons his political opponents in Russia. He has a gop in his pocket in America. He is a comfortable as one can ever hope to be.
I doubt it.
 

poker

Everyone's hero's, tell everyone's lies.
Jun 1, 2006
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Niagara
Dear righties…. Careful who you get into bed with. Especially if you are not the ones getting paid off. Just sayin. Putin is still a murderous dictator.

Blindly following the paid for narrative makes you a…. ?
 
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Leimonis

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2020
9,801
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Dear righties…. Careful who you get into bed with. Especially if you are not the ones getting paid off. Just sayin. Putin is still a murderous dictator.

Blindly following the paid for narrative makes you a…. ?
Since when did they have a problem with murderous dictators? Especially if they can deliver good stuff like Clinton’s emails
 
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basketcase

Well-known member
Dec 29, 2005
61,620
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Another ass kissing of Putin posted by Dan but I'm sure he'll once again pretend he posted it just for information sake.

In 1962, these kinds of actions were considered reasonable. Today it is just a pure power grab.

Also makes a huge difference was in '62, it was about nuclear weapons and opposed to who's members in which club.
 

jcpro

Well-known member
Jan 31, 2014
24,670
6,839
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Dear righties…. Careful who you get into bed with. Especially if you are not the ones getting paid off. Just sayin. Putin is still a murderous dictator.

Blindly following the paid for narrative makes you a…. ?
Like the lefties, hand in hand with the disgraced neocons, pushing for a war that may go nuclear without knowing why?
 
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nottyboi

Well-known member
May 14, 2008
22,658
1,446
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"news broke of another massacre in the Central African Republic by the Kremlin-backed mercenaries of the Wagner Group which left 70 people dead. In Syria, Putin kills innocent men, women, and children in league with Bashar al-Assad and Iran."

Can this be true? Where are the protests by western liberals? Or, are lives killed by Russia and/or Russian backed forces worth less than the few lives accidentally killed by the West?
Not different then black waters massacre's
 

csmitting

Well-known member
Aug 8, 2017
575
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Ya, Canada has no say; Whatsoever. Govt announcements otherwise are fundraising bollocks!
 

glamphotographer

Well-known member
Nov 5, 2011
17,039
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Canada
If that was all he wanted, Mr Chamberlain! He wants the whole Soviet Union back in place, including E. Germany eventually. He wants all of the old Ottoman Empire and he wants Alaska back - except for Sarah Palin...
No, no, no, Sarah is part of the deal, please take her.
 
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