Get Your War On

[Dr. Gonzo]

I just had this emailed to me a while ago. Thought I'd share it here and likely get the living hell flamed out of me.

http://www.mnftiu.cc/mnftiu.cc/war.html

I warn everyone: this is potentially very offensive. It is also very insightful and in my mind a look into the minds of most Americans post 9/11: fearful, angry, depressed, vengeful, frustrated with their government, numbed by shock and horror and sometimes very suspicious of the motives of their government.

I'll get this out of the way right now and say I see nothing inherently anti-american about it. Criticism of a government is not an indictment of a people. And I'm not posting it with the intent of insulting americans or any other nonsense. I think the comic raises some serious issues for us all and anyone would benefit from reading it with an open mind. It is disturbing, amusing, and eye opening, IMHO.

 

[Musketeer]

There are TWO adjectives you missed Dr. Gonzo, one is SAD, the other PATHETIC!

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

Selina: Love you too...keep up the battle, Super Vixen....

Musketeer: What I find sad and pathetic is people's ability to pull the wool over their own eyes in the face of overwhelming evidence that there is something terribly wrong going on.

Yes, the comic is blunt. It pulls few punches. It can be seen as a bit juvenile in how it presents itself, but the underlying message is powerful and one we could all stand to learn from.

 

[Goober Mcfly]

"posted 10/9/01"

Errr? Isn't this BEFORE the September 11th attack? Or is it supposed to be a lie, like the rest of the cartoon?

 

[niplust]

The point?

Gonzo & Selina:

I guess we now have two similar sources of incoherence. I wonder if you both receive your inspiration from the same deep thoughts. Very deep! Double deep! Multiple deep!

I love this nonsense.

Cheers

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

Goober: The date is correct, the 10th month, 9th day of 2001. That woud make it October 9 2001, so I fail to see the lie or error here, considering September 11th was 9/11/01, hence 9/11.

The comic is satire. But it also contains many truths and raises serious questions. If people are unable to see that, I'd suggest doing a little bit of homework. If you'd care to expand upon your statement a bit and tell me what exactly you feel is a lie I'd be happy to give you a counter-argument.

Niplust: Glad you can at least be amused. But incoherence? I'm disappointed but not surprised. Let me ask you why, if you think my perspective is so incoherent, you haven't bothered to try and correct me beyond a few scattered postings that I clearly rebutted to no reponse from you?

 

[onthebottom]

Not funny

or clever or insightful or meaningful. Just paranoid liberal crap. Please post links to propaganda that are at least cleaver. I don't mind any political point as long as it's presented with some whit.

OTB

 

[train]

What Goober....no comment on the last cartoon frame....lol.

 

[Goober Mcfly]

train: Here was my comment on the cartoon on the whole.

Or is it supposed to be a lie, like the rest of the cartoon?

 

[niplust]

Dr. Gonzo

In response to your comments on my post:

I do not have the time or the inclination to compose lengthy treatises. I spent a lot of time arguing such points in 60's and 70's regarding the Vietnam war. I had many friends like you back in the 70's who believed that Vietnam was simply the result of the US military-industrial complex retaining its power and influence to obtain a greater share of the tax pie.

After hundreds of fruitless hours of discussion and debate, I have learned that there is no evidence that can convince orthodox anarchists like yourself and Selina that you are just plain wrong. I'll bet you also believe that the moon-landing in 1969 was a hoax filmed in a studio in Burbank California.

Technology changes, fashion changes, but people remain the same!

So predictable!

Cheers

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

OTB: You are another who likes to criticize me for one or two posts, then disappear after a few of my rebuttals. If you are so confident that what I say is BS propaganda, present and defend an argument instead of dismissing me out of hand.

I think, time permitting, I'll go page by page and post evidence to support the claims made on each page of the comic. Maybe that will assist those too lazy to go do the research or who's memories are as long as a soundbite.

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

niplust: I'm not some wing-nut conspiracy theorist. Nor am I necessarilaly an Anarchist. I'm interested in the truth, plain and simple.

I can, and have, backed up my claims with evidence from credible sources. If you can't be bothered to do the same in your counter-argument don't be surprised when I dismiss you.

 

[onthebottom]

Time

Dr. Gonzo,

Dude, I just run out of time for this, I have to get back to the real world. But when you link us to a cartoon that criticizes food drops to Afghans because of land mines laid by Russians I just think it's propaganda. Most issues are a little to complex for a cartoon.

OTB

 

[niplust]

niplust: I'm not some wing-nut conspiracy theorist. Nor am I necessarilaly an Anarchist. I'm interested in the truth, plain and simple.

I

If that is the case, can you make your point succinctly? I would be pleased be able to debate points made clearly and precisely.

Cheers

 

[Goober Mcfly]

FYI

Aw, poor innocent, lovable, huggable Saddam Hussein. Heaven forbid that we should hurt him!

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/jackstraw1.html

(not for the queasy, just text, no pics, but disturbing none-the-less)

 

[onthebottom]

If you really want to understand the issues

beyond the capabilities of a cartoon I suggest:

http://www.cfr.org/publication.php?id=4876

OTB

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

Did anyone bother to read beyond the first page of the comic?

And I have absoloutely zero sympathy for Saddam Hussein. I do, however, have a hell of a lot of sympathy for an estimated 3000 children a month dying due to sanctions.

So Saddam commits torture and horrific human rights abuses, I'm hardly shocked. And I'd be able to muster a whole lot more anger if I didn't know we were being complete hypocrites about it.

Torture? We've done it.

Rape? We've done it.

Mass Murder? We've done it.

Chemical Warfare? We've done it. And yes, we did it to our own people.

Extra-Judicial Murder (assassination)? We've done it.

But somehow we think we are better?

niplust: If you haven't gathered my point in my 180+ posts, most of which are lenghty, you never will.

OTB: Typical. You toss in some vague critique, don't back it up, then claim you have better things to do than argue when I ask you to make a real case.
Got a problem? Back it up, "dude".....

And read the whole comic, it is about 16 pages. Then you might at least be better able to dismiss it.

 

[Goober Mcfly]

I do, however, have a hell of a lot of sympathy for an estimated 3000 children a month dying due to sanctions.

Sure, blame the sanctions. If Saddam would comply by the UN rules, and be a "nice guy" the sanctions would be reduced. It's HIS fault 3000 children a month are dying. Any international aid money probably goes right into arms development, or into his own coffers. If there's any reason for a regime-change, this is it.

He's an asshat.

Torture? We've done it.
Rape? We've done it.
Mass Murder? We've done it.
Chemical Warfare? We've done it. And yes, we did it to our own people.
Extra-Judicial Murder (assassination)? We've done it.

Yep, yep, yep. But we haven't done these things to keep our own people in line. There's been no reign of terror in Canada. (Chretien withstanding, of course...)

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

You're right Goober, Saddam is as you put it, an asshat. And it is very hard to say where the money is going, but judging the fact that he continues to build palaces while his people starve he liekly isn't distributing it very well. If he complied, perhaps the sanctions would be lifted.

But is an estimated half million civillians the price you are willing to pay to get compliance out of him? Does this not ammount to terror on our part? Do you think it's right that the US wants to imprison people for attempting to get medical supplies and food into Iraq? Are we not using civillians as hostages here? Is there a better way to ensure compliance?

I'm not suggesting we kiss Saddams ass. He's a creep and a butcher and he deserves to be punished. But can't we even explore a course of action that doesn't result in a humanitarian disaster?

Let's not forget that it was the US that intervened in the inspection process in 98 and halted it. Let's not forget that the US has consistently tried to abuse the inspections process and exploit the Oil for Food program (which is a farce).

A world trade center a month in casualties in Iraq and somehow this is justice?

And why does it matter that we haven't done things to our own people? Shouldn't the fact that we've done it be damning enough, regardless of who we've done it to? Never mind that our nations are both founded in the blood of genocide and religious persecution, slavery and terror.

 

[onthebottom]

Did anyone bother to read beyond the first page of the comic?

And I have absoloutely zero sympathy for Saddam Hussein. I do, however, have a hell of a lot of sympathy for an estimated 3000 children a month dying due to sanctions.

So Saddam commits torture and horrific human rights abuses, I'm hardly shocked. And I'd be able to muster a whole lot more anger if I didn't know we were being complete hypocrites about it.

Torture? We've done it.

Rape? We've done it.

Mass Murder? We've done it.

Chemical Warfare? We've done it. And yes, we did it to our own people.

Extra-Judicial Murder (assassination)? We've done it.

But somehow we think we are better?

niplust: If you haven't gathered my point in my 180+ posts, most of which are lenghty, you never will.

OTB: Typical. You toss in some vague critique, don't back it up, then claim you have better things to do than argue when I ask you to make a real case.
Got a problem? Back it up, "dude".....

And read the whole comic, it is about 16 pages. Then you might at least be better able to dismiss it.

We are not starving 3000 children a month (or what ever figure you care to use/make up). There has been a oil for food program available to Sadam since the mid 90s that he has chosen not to implement out of pride and propaganda purposes (fools like yourself for instance). This was initially limited to 2 billion dollars every 6 months. This has been expanded to a oil for stuff program that allows Sadam to buy almost anything he wants (except the obvious military goods), there is no limit to the spending. There is also an almost constant stream of goods smuggled into Iraq from Syria. If people are suffering in Iraq there is only one person to blame. Shame on you for distorting the facts to defend a tyrant.

Sadam doesn’t merely commit torture, it is a government institution. The country is dominated by fear and brutal violence. I don't think this in any way compares with how Canada or the US conduct themselves domestically or internationally. Once again Dr. you have no sense of proportion. And who cares if your surprised? You must have low expectations of how governments other than those in the West behave.

I think you would have a hard time substantiating government institutionalized examples of Rape, Torture, Assassination... in the US or Canada. Has it happened, yes. Are those examples isolated and heavily debated in public, yes. Are they common or accepted forms of maintaining control of the domestic population, NO. Again, a lack of proportion on your side.

OTB