Geothermal Heating and AC

[svtcobra]

Hi,

Another question for the day.

I would like to know if there is a company in Ontario that specialized in Geothermal Heating for homes here in Ontario ?. I've have seen this hands on here in Miami, and I would like to implement this into my home and cottage here in Ontario. I've got the bug to go green in some way, and yes to save money in costly heating and a/c. Anyway I've researched it a little but most of these companies are out west from what I can see.

Your help would be appreciated.

Thank You

svtcobra

 

[xix]

in google

type in :
your city geothermal

the result will come out.

 

[svtcobra]

Thank You

Sheik and Xix. I will look them up when I get back into the city...

 

[Sasha Jones]

Depending on where you are Yanch in Barrie installs Geothermal systems, but they service quite a region outside of Barrie as well.

 

[OddSox]

Government rebate of $4375 - http://oee.nrcan.gc.ca/corporate/incentives.cfm?attr=0 and also take a look at http://www.geo-exchange.ca/

 

[Master_Bates]

how much do these systems cost?

 

[svtcobra]

Depending on where you are Yanch in Barrie installs Geothermal systems, but they service quite a region outside of Barrie as well.

Sasha,

My home is about 2 1/2 hrs from barrie and cottage is allot further, it is pass parry sound. I will look into this also. I'm looking to retro fit both homes with Geothermal system and solar energy also a possibility for wind energy at the cottage. So that may work for me, I will have to get a few quote and research the companies a little more and see about their history.

Maybe I will ask my Operations Manager to looking into this more for me. I'm hoping to get the ball rolling quickly on this, as I don't a long drawn out summer of construction.


OddSox thank you for the link..

 

[seth gecko]

Geothermal heating in Miami & geothermal heating in Ontario (especially northern Ontario where your cottage is) are really two different animals...

The majority of geothermal heatpump systems in the US are water-based systems, and a good percentage of those are open systems, using a body of water as both the supply & discharge. If you are on a lake, this is one of the most practical & relatively inexpensive methods - my estimate is approx $10-12K. Ground source heatpumps require installing a closed loop in the ground & circulating a transfer medium (can be water but refrigerants work better) to extract the stored heat in the ground & put it where you want it - your house. Pricey. Very, very pricey. Can cost easily upwards of $50K.

Now here's why geothermal differs between Miami & Parry Sound. The design temperature for heating in your area is -11F, and the mean soil temperature is 46F (based in info from Enviroment Canada & the HRAI). Whats the coldest that Miami gets to in January....65F??? A rule of thumb in HVAC is that heatpumps are generally not recommended at temperatures below 50F....you will need a supplementary source of heat (ie..a furnace). I can't remember for sure, but I think that in Ontario a secondary heating source is mandatory. So you may be better of just going with the top-of-the-line , two-stage, variable speed DC motor high-efficiency gas furnace.

Also, there are LOTS of problems with heatpumps, from seized reversing valves to Dirty Sock Syndrome.

But check out Yanch......VERY knowledgeable guys in this field.
Good luck!

 

[seth gecko]

Oops, my bad. Another very good option is a hydronic system using a hi-efficiency (95-98%) waterheater & high velocity air handler/HRV unit. There are also glycol-based systems that work at approx 95% efficiency.
Reality is, for a cold climate like Parry Sound & northwards, just about any system you install (geothermal, solar, cogenerative) will require some combustion (gas, oil, woodpellets, etc) heat to keep the place comfy in winter

 

[Alger]

I have had a geothermal, two well system for about 18 years now in Ottawa ("up north" for you TO types) and it works fine. Water comes in at 43 F an leaves at about 36 F, at about 8 GPM. It has electric heat backup that comes on at about minus 30 C outside, depending on the wind. It had a higher capital cost, but I think it works out to about the price of natural gas in the long run (which is not an option where I am). Certainly cheaper than straight electric. I have had a few small pumps go, but other than that, it has worked fine. Newer ones are much more efficient I hear. One thing to keep in mind is that with the two well system, you need to run a 3/4 HP water pump pretty well continuously in the middle of winter, which adds to the electic bill.

Hope that helps

 

[C Dick]

I put in a closed-loop ground-source heat pump at my house. Cost was $30K, ROI of about 16% per year, replacing electric furnace. It has a straight electric backup built right in, but we never use it, even when it is -25 it is warm enough inside.

There is a guy in SW Ontario who builds them from scratch, we went with a US built system with a local installer.

 

[thewheelman]

There is a new house just a few doors down from me that is putting in GeoThermal system. There was a drill rig in his driveway for about 3 weeks.
Maybe I'll go ask a few questions. I'm curious how deep they go. I think my heating&ac friend said 250'.

 

[Aardvark154]

Quiks and Quarks had a segment on this last year.

http://www.cbc.ca/quirks/archives/07-08/feb02.html (at the bottom of the page) They interviewed people associated with Clean Energy Developments in Toronto.

 

[seth gecko]

Question for Alger & C Dick

How do you know when/if the electric backups in your systems are kicking in?
In Alger's example, a 7 degree F temperature change and 8GPM works out to 560 BTU/h. If you're keeping your house comfortable, your heat gain from the geothermal system must at least match your heat loss, so either your electric backup is kicking in to help out, or your house in incredibly well insulated & sealed against outside air infiltration. If you're keeping your house warm in the winter with 560 BTUH, then what else is going on in that house?

Put another way, 560 BTU/h is the approximate capacity of a window a/c unit. Most central a/c systems start at 1 ton, or 12000 BTUH. And about the smallest hi-efficiency natural gas furnace is 40000 BTUH. And those figures are in line with the typical heat gain/heat loss figures for a typical Toronto bungalow!!


Oops, my bad yet again!!! The above example is producing 560BTU/m; forgot to multiply by 60 to get the hourly input, which is 33600 BTUH, which is well in line with what it should be.

Working too much, need a vacation.........

 

[svtcobra]

Hey Seth Gecko.

Thank you for your informative response. I did know coming into this that the climate is a huge factor and had already know that. I'm not worried about where these are going as my home has lot of land to spare for the installation of the products. My cottage is active all year round, it is on a private spring fed lake. I'm not looking for cheap systems at all, something which is efficient and will do the job well. At the point cost it is not really an issue giving government rebates at this time. For my home I am worried as I run my business in a roughly 3500sq/f part of the house and cooling is a big factor when it comes to the summer time, and I like a cool/cold house when the summer hits.
I'm also looking into solar powering for both places, at least if I can get some sort of balance at my home and cottage I will be happy. Another thing I'm looking into is wind turbines... No not the massive type more for home environment.

Your information is very helpful to me.

Thank You
svtcobra

Geothermal heating in Miami & geothermal heating in Ontario (especially northern Ontario where your cottage is) are really two different animals...

The majority of geothermal heatpump systems in the US are water-based systems, and a good percentage of those are open systems, using a body of water as both the supply & discharge. If you are on a lake, this is one of the most practical & relatively inexpensive methods - my estimate is approx $10-12K. Ground source heatpumps require installing a closed loop in the ground & circulating a transfer medium (can be water but refrigerants work better) to extract the stored heat in the ground & put it where you want it - your house. Pricey. Very, very pricey. Can cost easily upwards of $50K.

Now here's why geothermal differs between Miami & Parry Sound. The design temperature for heating in your area is -11F, and the mean soil temperature is 46F (based in info from Enviroment Canada & the HRAI). Whats the coldest that Miami gets to in January....65F??? A rule of thumb in HVAC is that heatpumps are generally not recommended at temperatures below 50F....you will need a supplementary source of heat (ie..a furnace). I can't remember for sure, but I think that in Ontario a secondary heating source is mandatory. So you may be better of just going with the top-of-the-line , two-stage, variable speed DC motor high-efficiency gas furnace.

Also, there are LOTS of problems with heatpumps, from seized reversing valves to Dirty Sock Syndrome.

But check out Yanch......VERY knowledgeable guys in this field.
Good luck!

 

[C Dick]

On my system, there is a red LED on top of the thermostat that lights when it is in "emergency heat" mode. You can choose whether to allow it to activate or not.

My system only went down 10 feet, it is spread out over a wide area. That is way cheaper than drilling deep down, they only drill deep when there are other buildings close by and they can not spread out.

 

[hvacman]

How do you know when/if the electric backups in your systems are kicking in?
In Alger's example, a 7 degree F temperature change and 8GPM works out to 560 BTU/h. If you're keeping your house comfortable, your heat gain from the geothermal system must at least match your heat loss, so either your electric backup is kicking in to help out, or your house in incredibly well insulated & sealed against outside air infiltration. If you're keeping your house warm in the winter with 560 BTUH, then what else is going on in that house?

Put another way, 560 BTU/h is the approximate capacity of a window a/c unit. Most central a/c systems start at 1 ton, or 12000 BTUH. And about the smallest hi-efficiency natural gas furnace is 40000 BTUH. And those figures are in line with the typical heat gain/heat loss figures for a typical Toronto bungalow!!


Oops, my bad yet again!!! The above example is producing 560BTU/m; forgot to multiply by 60 to get the hourly input, which is 33600 BTUH, which is well in line with what it should be.

Working too much, need a vacation.........

You also forgot about the heat of compression.

 

[svtcobra]

Hey Everyone,

To the all the people who had put their input into this thread, it was very helpful and to those who pm'ed me. A huge thank you goes out to as well.

I was able to book and meet with a few of these companies and quotes was given out on both properties. I'm still going over the little things in the contracts, and 2 final companies are in my final thoughts.


thanks again.

 

[21pro]

svt... it is quite common in our neck of the woods. alot of contractors do this in caledon/georgetown/erin/orangeville. same with cottage country.